SokkOS 2.0, beta
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by controlvoltage on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:51 pm

Hi Sokkan,

I have not follower the main thread for a minute - but, just a quick question:

Is the "live edit with MIDISYNC" mode (x0x plays slaved to MIDI clock, while step and realtime pattern editing is enabled) still gone?
Maybe I'm the only one, but this was the mode I used almost 100% of the time. For me, it was completely perfect for live jamming and improvisation...
cheers,

Amos

PS) related topic: is there an ATMEGA with larger code space that is compatible with x0xb0x?
-=trimmer tweeker=-
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by antto on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:50 pm

controlvoltage wrote:PS) related topic: is there an ATMEGA with larger code space that is compatible with x0xb0x?

have you missed the "CPU mod" thread? :roll:
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by Sokkan on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:55 pm

controlvoltage wrote:Is the "live edit with MIDISYNC" mode (x0x plays slaved to MIDI clock, while step and realtime pattern editing is enabled) still gone?
Maybe I'm the only one, but this was the mode I used almost 100% of the time. For me, it was completely perfect for live jamming and improvisation...


Huh?
If you want to edit live with MIDI-sync, just start the machine in MIDI-sync play-mode and turn the knob to edit.
Perhaps you are referring to the mode on User C that is available in FW 1.05? I removed it because you get the exact same thing by doing the above.
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by pangrus on Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:36 am

Very good job!
I've upgraded my xOxbOx this morning, is better to have the triplet mode than fast editing...perharps the lenght of a triplet pattern should be 12?
SokkOS is amazing, far better than the original TB303 sequencer!
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by 3phase on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:24 am

pangrus wrote:Very good job!
I've upgraded my xOxbOx this morning, is better to have the triplet mode than fast editing...perharps the lenght of a triplet pattern should be 12?
SokkOS is amazing, far better than the original TB303 sequencer!



i agree that its amazing and far better than the original xox sequencer.. its however as poor as the original xox sequencer when it comes to sequence creation.. its really just for all notes triggered 1 bar patterns, the most primitiv 303 sequence style... dagagdagaddagadda...Because many just want to use the 303 to make goa style and not true acid that dont hurts many..
the true acid guys can use the real 303.. But the xox is doomed to be allways just one of the failed clones because it cant sound like a real 303 at all..
All theese real funky 303 lines that really work it allmost 3 dimensional when moving the filter knob, because of acc/slide programing, just dont work... theese lines that totally change theire rhytmical content just by changes on the filter knob.. all the more complikated slide figures that totaly change as soon you add an accent...

Thats missing..
The interaction between slide and acc is screwed because the internal event timing of the xox sequencer is totally different to that of the real 303.. therfore its impossible to transfer 303 lines that use the funk factor to a xoxbox directly.. they just dont match.. and even when you try to rewrite the sequence to make it match.. it will sound stiff and just banned against a real 303 because the way acc and slides are performed along the timeline is just too different.. there is no legato independent from slide for example.. and the gate length is not wright.. and the slide is performed at the step start..not the step end... That all makes a real 303 sequence that uses theese features very elastic sounding.. like a bouncing ball

In regard of the sequencer the xox cant match with a real 303.. It sounds really stiff..like a stupid robot.. or just like you know it from any sequencer.. the 303 is not just its sound engine. The typical 303 clone trap.. all the failed clones share this problem.. you cant make something sounding like a 303 when you dont make the sequencer shuffel the events like in a 303.

That is not Sokan´s fault.. he just expanded on the adafruit design ... therefore included the non 303 event timing and missing legato..
and therefore his os also prevents the xox sounding like a 303.

I dont know if it spossible to change the internal timing without rewriting everything..and add a legato without slide
If so maybe see this a s a suggestion for future versions.. that would however dont replay the older sequences the same way as you know it..therfore Sokan himself is probably not into a version that sounds like a real 303...

However.. I just have to oppose that any xox sequencer is better as the original 303 sequencer as long the endresult sounds so stiff in relation. And that has nothing to do with the input and edit concept.. I see why people like the original adafruit style to do it step by step.. its a different workflow han in a real 303 but defently an alternativ option..so

Everything else could stay the same as friends of this concept know it...but the way the acc and slide events are timed would be different.. ANd therfore older sequences would play different.. even when the slide start is just shifted slightly and the gatelength of single steps would be slightly longer... the result sounds so much different that its allmost like a different sequence.. its like switching the allive knob.. But when you liked the robotik feel of your original sequence..thta would be gone than..

and.. the missing legato event.. that wouldnt effect older sequences that just dont use it.. but how to include it? the tempo knob?

For a real 303 feel you need legato without slide...that actually plays a key role there.. because that is part of the acc/slide interaction of a real 303..and can create lots of expression and alterartion of patterns when you legato notes and add the slide acc only to a later step.. that makes it funky.. and is actually responsible in part for the famous 303 screaming when the slide kicks in after the acc on the same note .. that really changes a lot

so a xox just cant scream like a real 303 or have the funky "wuoong".. The xox just makes "woong" instead..
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by antto on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:07 pm

erm, what do you mean with legato?
the 303 only has Accent, Slide, and Tie
there is only 1 thing causing the pitch of a note to fade slowly towards another note, and that's the Slide

and once again, there is no shuffle in the 303, no voodoo in the gate length either
remember, 303 can be (and usually is) sync'ed to an external dinsync clock
EDIT: in fact, unlike on the x0xb0x, on the 303 the internal clock is not generated by the CPU
the "internal" clock is analog, and the CPU doesn't make any difference if it's sync'ed to it, or external clock
all it does is counts the "ticks"

otherwise, yeah there is some odd logic of how exactly the Accent is applied on notes
it's the 303 sequencer that prevents you from doing some things (which are otherwise possible in the synth itself)
on a 303, you cannot activate an accent on a Rest
you cannot change from one note to another immediately

here's something from my analysis of the 303
i've "guessed" the accent control voltage based on the audio recording, the pattern is written in 303 format
Image
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by 3phase on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:05 pm

with legato i mean tie..
the slide on a real 303 sets in after the step is passed so having one note with 3 steps.. with the second and third tie.. but the last one on slide, followed by a rest and than a single step one oktave up will makes something totally different than anything you could do with a xox..

and the 303 is sounding this way much better.. thats beyond a question of taste., the xox is really stiff and unmusical sounding in relation ... so there is defently space for improvement..
With swing i dont mean a shufflefactor.. i mean the natural swing you getz on a real 303 by the way it bends it notes and how they decay on a rest.. the guy that developed the 303 did a a very good job to make it organic sounding.. back than they wasnt so much after a machine sound sound..they actually tried to mimic natural instruments and players..even whne this is hard to belive.. but the havent tried to create techno toys..

The exact reasons for the different behavior will need some further investigation.. sometimes its little changes that have big fx..

do you know this article?

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/303-slide.html
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by pangrus on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:40 am

After recent replies from 3phase an antto, i've decided to test in deep my xOxbox, comparing it to a real TB303.
So, as 3phase suggest, I've made a 5 steps pattern, the first three are sliding, then a rest followed by a uppered note.
I've also tried to place accents in different places, with different cutoff-resonance settings, trying to match it on both machines.
And there are no differences, except the differences given by the envelope and decay settings. That are the very responsible of the "funk" effect, on both machines.

So, there is no magic in roland box, or at least we can say that has been recreated in xOxbox, perfectly.

But, every time I've to edit the pattern on the TB303, I've to hit stop. No real time editing possibilities, except note lenght tapping.
On the xOxbOx I can go from pattern play to pattern edit, shuffle the pattern, put different accents and slides, save it to a different location. And chain the new created patterns in a manner that on a TB303 can only be achieved in Track Write mode. And then put some swing! And it's real FUN.

Cheers!
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by 3phase on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:58 am

guys..you allways make patters where every 16th not is posessed.. try to make some more original lines that use notes from various length and rest steps.. and compare than..

a 303 sequencer emulation that is limitetd to sequences that have every 16 note posessed? its allowed to have a quarter note silence in a sequence..or in music in general
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by antto on Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:21 am

3phase wrote:with legato i mean tie..
the slide on a real 303 sets in after the step is passed so having one note with 3 steps.. with the second and third tie.. but the last one on slide, followed by a rest and than a single step one oktave up will makes something totally different than anything you could do with a xox..

you mean:
c(S) c(U)
G O O G

and what's supposed to happen to the second note there?
i'd say: nothing


yeah, i've read it, it's one of the very first things i read about the 303 some years ago
i respect Robin but this sentence is wrong:
The gate goes high at the start of clock pulse 0 - the positive edge.

The gate goes low half-way through clock pulse 3 - on its negative
edge.

That is for a normal, 1/16 note. So there are 3.5 clock pulses on
and 2.5 off.

it's 3:3 not 3.5:2.5
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by xlarge on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:34 pm

3phase wrote:guys..you allways make patters where every 16th not is posessed.. try to make some more original lines that use notes from various length and rest steps.. and compare than..

a 303 sequencer emulation that is limitetd to sequences that have every 16 note posessed? its allowed to have a quarter note silence in a sequence..or in music in general


This is getting way off topic but please post one of your lines and let us recreate and analyze - for the sake of improving the firmware.
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by Acrobatics on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:52 pm

3phase wrote:and.. the missing legato event.. that wouldnt effect older sequences that just dont use it..


The legato tricks works perfectly, mr, are you sure of what you are saying?
Or it is probably the case you have listened to a damaged x0x or x0x OS?
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by 3phase on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:00 am

Acrobatics wrote:
3phase wrote:and.. the missing legato event.. that wouldnt effect older sequences that just dont use it..


The legato tricks works perfectly, mr, are you sure of what you are saying?
Or it is probably the case you have listened to a damaged x0x or x0x OS?
A.



damaged os? is this possible? ok..i install again and try again.. and to stay on topic i try with this version to see how the triplets behave..

i actually would prefer a damged xox or os because that can be easily fixed.. the last time i tried to convert my 303 lines to xox lines it hasnt worked in a singkle case out of 4...than i gave up...

i realy would like to be able tpo play my old 303 lines..

i start a new thread about differnces between the main xox os version.. which are in the moment the dominant sokkos and the intersting original 303 aproach of anto..the nonxox os.. and a real 303..

with this beta of the sokkos os booth os should allow all possible rhyitmical variations a 303 can do so booth should be theoretical able to play any 303 line..

one request to anto.. you have a strange way to write down the 303 lines.. can youz explain that maybe in the other thread i will open in a minute so that we can speak one lamnguage when checking how 303 lines translate into the xox?
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by Acrobatics on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:59 am

3phase wrote:the last time i tried to convert my 303 lines to xox lines it hasnt worked in a singkle case out of 4...than i gave up...

Really, I had no problems in transalating some of my best...mmmmh,
maybe one other reason for your problems could be the different note entry system of the 2 machines: for example, try to shift the all slides one position to the right and let the notes and accents in their original positions, let me know if it works, cheers, A.
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Re: SokkOS 2.0, beta

by biggnoize on Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:50 pm

Sokkan wrote:
pACHE wrote:That was I supposed ;) Do you think it's hard to do code pattern transpose "on the fly", i.e. dissociate this with pattern start ?
I have to figure out a way to do changes with my machine drum now :)


It should actually be trivial and may not even take up any more code space, it is perhaps a good idea? Since you are already using external means of controlling the x0xb0x I see no point in having it transpose only on pattern boundaries. I will look into it.


That would be great! You just do wicked fill ins with that ability. The other extension of that is to able to receive midi notes while the sequencer is playing, with the midi notes taking priority, then you could drop fancy fills in!
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