OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

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adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

pichenettes wrote:Do you have data on the following point: Which fraction of the people vaguely knowing what an Arduino is are buying a clone vs the original hardware?
again, this for the *arduino.cc* forums and the arduino team, i've heard them speak about this - you should ask them *not us* - you are concerned with this, you need to contact them. we have *nothing* to do with how the arduino team runs their business, they do a lot of research and marketing studies - have you contacted them about this?
pichenettes wrote:If you are so confident that renaming a "Boarduino" an "Arduino breadboard edition" would have absolutely no impact on its sales, run a survey to see why people bought the arduino board they have. We'll see if people buying Duemilanoves are buying it because it came with the name they heard of (Arduino) or because they really liked the blue color and italy map.
you're welcome to run a survey, you want the data - you run the survey - that's how it works. please report back the results here.

pichenettes wrote:I have posted my concerns on the arduino.cc forums, here's the link: (I don't have any concern at all with Arduino, they have a solid marketing strategy and are doing the right thing, with the right tool, to protect their project)
there isn't a link in your post.

pichenettes wrote:So "no one can do X" but it's not a restriction?
depends what X is, for OSHW anyone can make hardware that is identical to the arduino, you do not seem to like this - but it's true and people / companies do this now.
pichenettes wrote:You won't have a point unless you'll have opened a new e-commerce site under a new name, and put there two products on sale : an "Arduino compatible board" and a Duemilanove. Look at sales numbers. If you're so confident that selling something under the original name is not a trade advantage, why don't run the experiment?
you want us to open a new site under a new name to sell cloned arduinos, we have nothing to do with your issues with the *arduino* trademark, you should propose the *arduino.cc* team does this in the *arduino.cc forums* if you want that data, we don't need that data, but you seem to - go for it, let us know how that works out for you. again, we are not the arduino team.
pichenettes wrote:The fact that these are 3 years old doesn't invalidate the arguments that: 1/ trademark is a concern to some people ; 2/ a -nc license is a natural thing to do for people who have started a project.
you were 100% wrong. here's the quote you left out from the arduino team again...
arduino team wrote: "I do want to clarify one point about the licenses, however. The files were originally released under the CC share-alike, non-commercial license. After some internal discussion, we came around to the FSF and OSI point-of-view and dropped the non-commercial restriction. Apparently, we forgot to update the page for the single-sided serial board. That was an oversight that I've just fixed. "
at least admit you were incorrect about this before moving forward (like claiming the LOLshield wasn't OSHW - and we needed to post the license here you didn't see that is clearly part of the PCB download - LICENSE.TXT).
pichenettes wrote:That it invalidates, in no way, the point that "nc" was the first thing they did because that is an easier thing to accept for people starting a project. The fact that the thread is 3 years old is indeed a part of my argument: it matters more to me what they were thinking when they were in a position I can relate to.
yes it does - the project evolved over time - you should think about why changed their mind too. you have issues with the trademark now and the non-commercial usage or lack of now - you should stick to that, you cannot go back in time 3 years to argue about that, if you want to see changes in arduino, contact them - not us and not here, we do not run the arduino project.
pichenettes wrote:We don't agree, and false can imply anything :) None of us is right or wrong unless you'll show me hard data about the impact on sales of labelling something "Arduino" vs "XXXuino (arduino compatible)". If you show me that they sell equally well, I'll be happy to recognize that "owning" the original name is not an advantage.
we have nothing to do with your issues with the *arduino* trademark, you should propose the *arduino.cc* team does this in the *arduino.cc forums* - if this important to you (and it seems like it is) you should prove that it matters or does not matter, we are not going to do research for you, we've posted text when you've posted incorrect things but we do not have any plans to do arduino trademark research for you - spend some time on it and report back here if you'd like.
pichenettes wrote:You're in a position to get this data, I am not, and the Arduino people are not. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I think this would be a great data point. Until then we're just repeating the same thing over and over, which is not very constructive.
you've been proven wrong over and over again here. we are not in the data-gatthering business for arduino-trademark-guy and your issues with the *arduino* trademark, you should propose the *arduino.cc* team does this in the *arduino.cc forums*
pichenettes wrote:Now waiting for data...
we are waiting too, let us know when you run that survery and make an arduino clone site.

pichenettes
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by pichenettes »

"I do want to clarify one point about the licenses, however. The files were originally released under the CC share-alike, non-commercial license. After some internal discussion, we came around to the FSF and OSI point-of-view and dropped the non-commercial restriction. Apparently, we forgot to update the page for the single-sided serial board. That was an oversight that I've just fixed. "
I said that they originally released their file with a license with a non-commercial restriction, which is exactly what they did.
At its infancy, the Arduino project was nc
and
The files were originally released under the CC share-alike, non-commercial license
I might be wrong on things none of us can back with data, not on the fact that Arduino had, at some point in time, a non-commercial restriction.
Last edited by pichenettes on Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

pichenettes wrote:I said that they originally released their file with a license with a non-commercial bit, which is what they did.
*and* they changed their minds as the project evolved which you deliberately left out and ignored until we posted the quote from them.
pichenettes wrote:I might be wrong on things none of us can back with data, not on the fact that Arduino had, at some point in time, a non-commercial restriction.
perhaps they will change their mind again, it's likely best to stick to the present, works towards a future you'd like to see and get involved with the arduino project, again - we are not the arduino team and we find it strange that you continue to post your issues with them here.

pichenettes
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by pichenettes »

adafruit wrote:
pichenettes wrote:I said that they originally released their file with a license with a non-commercial bit, which is what they did.
*and* they changed their minds as the project evolved which you deliberately left out and ignored until we posted the quote from them.

perhaps they will change their mind again, it's likely best to stick to the present, works towards a future you'd like to see and get involved with the arduino project, again - we are not the arduino team and we find it strange that you continue to post your issues with them here.
I certainly did not left it out deliberately, I know the project is now OSHW kosher and I have seen this quote and the announcement on the Arduino blog. What matters here is that when they were small they went for -nc-, which corroborates what some other people here have posted about (the transition from nc to full OSHW), and which makes this whole thing relevant to the topic of this post.

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

pichenettes wrote:I certainly did not left it out deliberately
you left out the most important part, the part that proved what you were saying was not correct / not current. here's that very important quote from the arduino team, again...
arduino team wrote: I do want to clarify one point about the licenses, however. The files were originally released under the CC share-alike, non-commercial license. After some internal discussion, we came around to the FSF and OSI point-of-view and dropped the non-commercial restriction. Apparently, we forgot to update the page for the single-sided serial board. That was an oversight that I've just fixed. "
you can likely pull a quote from a forum post where *we also questioned many things about OSHW* and where we may have even changed our mind about something - but you can't go back in time and argue with past-us or past-arduino-team. we may change our mind too, if you're really interested in our thoughts about *our biz* ask away (just be polite) - otherwise post your arduino issues in the arduino forums.

we have been doing OSHW before there was the term, what do you call what we did 5 years ago? who knows, projects evolve, new terms are used, things change. leaving out details doesn't help and again, post this in the arduino.cc forums, talk to them about this there, not here.
pichenettes wrote:I know the project is now OSHW kosher and I have seen this quote and the announcement on the Arduino blog. What matters here is that when they were small they went for -nc-, which corroborates what some other people here have thought about.
who are these "other people" that have corroborated on why arduino was -nc- when they were small? where are they, who are they? why are you posting *here* about this? everyone who has been part of the project knows they were OSHW before they were "popular" - you know that too :)

again you should contact the arduino team and post in the arduino.cc forums - like many, we've been part of OSHW from the start, that is not an accurate statement on why arduino moved from nc to commercial use allowed. you'll need to join that community to discuss it - we've specifically talked about this with them, you should too. as you said, you've been in this 12 months, you probably do not have all the information.

we will not speak for them *you* need to talk to them about their business, just like you will need to create your arduino survey and arduino-clone site for *your* research.

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oskay
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by oskay »

y'all really should move this topic to the OSH forums:

http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/forum ... um.php?f=5

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

oskay wrote:y'all really should move this topic to the OSH forums: http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/forum ... um.php?f=5
you're right - we're tryin' --- if pichenettes (or others) posts again here we're going to repost his issues with arduino in the arduino forums and in the OSH forums, we've asked politely dozens of times - so next time we'll move the topic there regardless.

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chuckm
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by chuckm »

Fascinating discussion. A couple of thoughts.

What is the NetDuino ? http://www.netduino.com/

So here is an "open source" bit of hardware that can only be programmed if you're running Windows. There has been speculation that "Secret Labs LLC" is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft (ie its actually a Microsoft project without the baggage of having the Microsoft name)

To pichenttes concern about branding (the Arduino brand in particular) the Seeeduino, the Boarduino, the Freedunio all seem to get plenty of sales. And as a former Google employee I can tell you that and good BANNED consultant can get your Arduino clone page right at the top of the results when someone types "Arduino" into that search bar. Or you can buy 'Arduino' as a keyword search for your advertisement/link.

--Chuck

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

ChuckM wrote:Fascinating discussion. A couple of thoughts.What is the NetDuino ? http://www.netduino.com/ So here is an "open source" bit of hardware that can only be programmed if you're running Windows. There has been speculation that "Secret Labs LLC" is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft (ie its actually a Microsoft project without the baggage of having the Microsoft name)
it's open source hardware, they've released the files, sources, design files, commercial use allowed etc - it's "like" the arduino in that way. the hardware can be programmed using something besides windows, but it's not as easy for most. the name netduino is theirs and they're a business (name likely trademarked).

the netduino folks are releasing linux and mac IDEs, we think they've said this online (and they've said this in person) - we've met them a few times - nice folks and it's great to see more OSHW coming out.

we do not know if they are a wholly owned subsidiary of microsoft, but if they are that's pretty cool - microsoft getting in to OSHW - the more the merrier, we didn't even need to convince them. OSHW isn't for everyone, but maybe it's for microsoft :)

cheers,
adafruit

chriswalker
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by chriswalker »

ChuckM wrote:So here is an "open source" bit of hardware that can only be programmed if you're running Windows.
ChuckM,

Quick update for you. In addition to Visual Studio, the Mono team has baked Netduino (.NET MF) support into their new C# compiler...for Mac, Linux, and Windows.

We're working with the open source community on MonoDevelop integration so that there's a nice IDE, but in the mentime we've posted full OSS build instructions over on the Netduino forums (along with an open source reflashing tool). Also...Brian Jepson was kind enough to post build instructions for the new Mono compiler for Mac/Linux as well.

For more information on the latest OSS Mono support and the OSH Netduino hardware:
http://forums.netduino.com/index.php?/forum/12-mono/

I'm excited to see your passion about OSS and OSH. I'm continually impressed by the talent in this community

Chris
Secret Labs LLC

picdude777
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by picdude777 »

Deleted by author. Please see replies to understand the reasoning.
Last edited by picdude777 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

many of your comments are really mean-spirited, please keep the tone here polite and constructive, thanks.
picdude777 wrote: I'd say that as a very small start-up, immediately moving your designs to open-source puts you at a grave disadvantage. It may be presumptuous to the extreme, but when someone like SparkFun decides to produce your design, how can you add more value than they can?
can you provide a specific example of sparkfun doing this?
picdude777 wrote: In the early stages of a "board" business, I just can't see any compelling reasons to open-source any designs. Besides who is going to force me to open source my work? Arduino??
is someone trying to convince you? open-source hardware isn't for everyone. if it doesn't sound compelling to you, that's that!

it sounds like you want to get all the value and goodness of the open-source community and arduino but do not want to provide any value back in return, that's a shame. you're building your product around everyone's hard work but you're unwilling to share in the same way.

there are many many other ways to release hardware. you're in our forums, we're an open-source hardware business, a pretty good one too we think and while we'd love to see more people join this amazing community and movement, we know it's not for everyone and there's no amount of success or data points that will convince them.
picdude777 wrote: there's very little reason to purchase an "official" Arduino when you can get an excellent quality clone from China for under $16.00 shipped! After a point, the Arduino business model will begin to fail by the simple weight of it's success. The larger the penetration of the Arduino platform, the more impetus there will be to produce them in Asia
can you post some photos of this excellent quality arduino clone you bought for $16.00 shipped? we'd like to check that out.

the sales have only gone up each year, they're now at 300k+ units. when do you predict the arduino business model will fail and what is an indicator that it would be failing?

the clones haven't impacted the arduino sales at all. we talk with the arduino team on a regular basis and while it's a little annoying and sad to see clones that use the arduino(tm) name on the board, this is the taxation / piracy everyone gets when you make something people want. there are adafruit and sparkfun clones too, it happens. even paul who makes the teensy got cloned, including the name. his product isn't open source so it's clear that it being closed source didn't stop anyone either (we stock his real one, buy directly from him and support him).
picdude777 wrote: and after a while it becomes impossible for the originators to distinguish themselves, other than by over-reaching, politically-correct, statements like "sustainable production", "fair wages", etc. :roll:
this is very important to many people, just because you don't think this matters, doesn't mean it's not what some people care about.

thanks,
adafruit

picdude777
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by picdude777 »

adafruit wrote:
can you post some photos of this excellent quality arduino clone you bought for $16.00 shipped? we'd like to check that out.

I bought every recent variant of Arduino from China, all worked 100%, with very good quality boards, soldering, component placement. etc. Given they use exactly the same components, dunno how you can say an official version is somehow "better". (they could try to cheap-out on the discretes, but that's a pointless risk given the utterly trivial cost compared to the IC's, a bad cap simply isn't worth the risk of a dead board...)

- http://www.ebay.com/itm/230560459595 Duemilanove, there are cheaper, I just grabbed this one at $17.80...)

- http://www.ebay.com/itm/150638202459 Nano $16.99 Awesome board, so cute! Is this a "clone"? How can you tell?

- http://www.ebay.com/itm/170655718813 Uno, OK, it was closer to $20 shipped, but you get the idea...

- http://www.ebay.com/itm/300540652124 Mega 1280 for $28.37 shipped!


- USBasp programmer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370532286436 Insane @ $4.99 shipped, utterly impossible price when you consider worldwide mail cost from North America or the EU!

All arrived quite quickly, between 8-15 working days, all by registered mail. Trying to source regional equivalents of the above would easily double the cost. (there is no local supply, unless you're in a large major center)


As I said before, you really don't want to be in any kind of business where you need to compete at this level! The only thing saving Arduino LLC is the dealer network they have, and more importantly, the naiveté of the average buyer with respect to getting a better deal than at a recognized regional supplier.

adafruit
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by adafruit »

picdude777,

many of your comments are pretty mean-spirited, since this is your first time posting here please know that we try to have a positive tone here. this forum is for people who want help with their open-source hardware business and/or customers of ours. you implied you are neither and against open-source hardware.

we're not going to address many of your statements, but we do have some questions about some of the good ones if you are willing to participate in a polite, constructive way.
picdude777 wrote:
The second and absolutely critical path to success in this marketspace is a vibrant, personal, and extremely engaging website. The idea that you sell widgets should almost be secondary to the potential for learning that your visitors can have. If you sell a widget, you better be prepared to explain in many ways how much fun it will be to use said widget. Examples, photos, videos, tutorials are an absolute requirement to gain loyalty, and get conversion to product buys.
how do you plan to do this for your product? do you have any examples of photos, videos and tutorials you've created?
picdude777 wrote:
After a certain critical mass has been hit, the whole open-source/closed product concept is actually a non-issue, more of an ethical choice rather than a business decision.
maybe for you, but not for everyone.

for your product, what are the ethical choices you've specifically made? do you think it's possible to make both good ethical and good business decisions?
picdude777 wrote: I'd say that as a very small start-up, immediately moving your designs to open-source puts you at a grave disadvantage. It may be presumptuous to the extreme, but when someone like SparkFun decides to produce your design, how can you add more value than they can?
again, can you provide a specific example of sparkfun doing this? why pick on sparkfun if there isn't any evidence that they've done this?
picdude777 wrote:I bought every recent variant of Arduino from China, all worked 100%, with very good quality boards, soldering, component placement. etc. Given they use exactly the same components, dunno how you can say an official version is somehow "better". (they could try to cheap-out on the discretes, but that's a pointless risk given the utterly trivial cost compared to the IC's, a bad cap simply isn't worth the risk of a dead board...)
you're supporting the purchase of trademark infringing products? why?

zero, as in 0, of the ones you linked to are less than $16.00 with shipping. one of them was even shut down for copyright violations!

some of the feedback on the sellers...
not working
THIS IS NOT A REAL ARDUINO UNO!! FAKE!
"Can't be bothered with returns, this is a piece of Junk!"
"It has been almost 2 months and I have not yet got the item delivered."
BAD SELLER DIDNT SEND ME ITEM!!!LIERRRR
WARNING AVOID! Never recieved. postage so long no eBay after 45days
item recieved did not match item description at all!! very disapointed

everyone who makes things usually agrees a few random auctions here and there on ebay do not matter at all, never did - never will. everyone who makes things has this as a minor annoyance. none of these are $16.00 shipped as you said, it's a common trick to put the price to nothing and then charge more, sounds like you fell for it and it sounds like you'll have some paperweights soon :)

many people looking for a seemingly cheap deal go to ebay, or ones that don't care about support or quality - ebay.

do you think a school or a company in the usa that teaches students is going to buy hundreds from some random ebay seller, no. ever sell to a school or any company? you need to fill out w9s, paperwork. we do this each day. so does sparkfun, so do many arduino resellers.

we do think the official arduino is better, but it's possible that there are good clones, sure! the arduino is just more than hardware though, something that you do not realize or care about based on all the things you've said.

can you post high-res photos of these boards? linking to old auctions isn't what we asked :)

you said you're "new to the board biz" how do you know how good they are? have you had a student use them 50 times a day? or really test them? no, of course not.

we've seen first hand arduino clones that fall apart after unplugging the usb cord a few times.

we're willing to buy what you consider a "better" one and check it out. we'll pay for it, the shipping and even give you a real arduino in return. email [email protected] and we'll gladly do the pepsi challenge! AND share the results! we'll do this on live video too!

we spend extra $$ on our PCBs, we know beginners will be abusing them. we get large orders from schools and companies because of our attention to detail on things like this, so does the arduino team. things like this actually matter.

have you visited the arduino forums and read the hundreds of posts about cheap clones that break after a few weeks or never work at all?

what you "may" get is always very different than a photo on ebay. the arduino team has been getting good about shutting down the ones that use the name on the board or as the product. every company has this issue with ebay that makes things, we routinely have auctions stopped. it's a very easy process. will it ever stop? of course not, but a few auctions compared to the 300k legitimate sales isn't even 1%.
picdude777 wrote: As I said before, you really don't want to be in any kind of business where you need to compete at this level! The only thing saving Arduino LLC is the dealer network they have, and more importantly, the naiveté of the average buyer with respect to getting a better deal than at a recognized regional supplier.
it sounds like -you- do not want to be in a business where there is this type of competition, that's cool - all electronics are fast paced and very challenging businesses, ask HP!

we're in that business and we love supporting the arduino team and open-source hardware. our customers value the service and support we provide as well as our tutorials. it sounds like this type of business and community just isn't for you.

do you feel the average buyer is "naive"? that's a pretty low opinion of people.
picdude777 wrote: and after a while it becomes impossible for the originators to distinguish themselves, other than by over-reaching, politically-correct, statements like "sustainable production", "fair wages", etc. :roll:
that's good to know that this doesn't matter to you - is it safe for all your customers to assume you went the cheapest way possible,that you do not support fair wages or sustainable production?

we're positive you will not be willing to say the name of your product here with statements like this.

thanks,
adafruit

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richms
 
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

Post by richms »

I have bought several of the "china-duinos" - mainly the mega's.

Some were ok, some I have had issues with. Tracks breaking off one of them - not very well attached to the board. Reset button on one broke off. Ok for me because I know what I am doing. If a beginner to arduino got a dodgey one where a couple of port pins were on tracks that they had cracked etc then it does nothing but damage for the arduino brand.

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