AirHarp Shield

Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!

Moderators: adafruit_support_bill, adafruit

Forum rules
Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!
mikeselectricstuff
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:21 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by mikeselectricstuff »

Do you know of any board houses that will do a PCB that's 2 feet in length?
You probably want to avoid over-large PCBs where possible as if nothing else it restricts your choice of suppliers - see if you can split into 2.
There is no hard limit, but typical limits are 400-500mm depending on supplier.
Bear in mind that if you are going into production, there will also be size limits on the stencil print , pick & place and oven processes which will again constrain choice of assembly houses. There are also issues like PCB warp and placement accuracy over large areas which require local fiducials.

If you really want to go big and can afford it, check out these people, who can do PCBs up to 1.2x3 metres!
http://www.lueberg.de/index.php?id=15&L=2
Image

TheFallen
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by TheFallen »

Or a low-pass/high-pass filter combo 2 resistors and 2 capacitors. I want to play around with this now, going to grab some ultrasonic transducers now :D

User avatar
mymaestro
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by mymaestro »

I would not try to think about how cheaply you should sell it. Think about musicians with $$$ instead of engineers :-)
If you get it into a nice case with better buttons (that don't click so loud) it becomes a MIDI controller that you just plug in and start playing. Now you're talking about a $199 instrument. You can't find MIDI *anything* for less than $99. A MIDI merger box that is *way* simpler than the airHarp goes for > $100.

itcamefrommars
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:25 am

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by itcamefrommars »

I concur on the price for it's market's value range...
Musicians (often) spend like a kid who got 100 bucks from granny on xmas.

Look at alot of the DIY synths out there that sell for big money - IN KITS.
Getlofi has IMHO pretty homemade stuff they sell for more than shield prices.
Not to mention the "doomsday circuit bending kit" which is an electronics goldmine find (i got 150 at 45 cents each !) they offer for 20bucks!!! Makershed did the same thing but 25% pricier:
http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails ... lick=19209 -
They added value by supplying a printed manual. That's a good idea - I believe you mentioned that you will be doing that.
I suppose it's supposed to be "green" since all the parts are "surplus"...


Check out other prices out there - add up there costs in bulk for components and then figure their profit margin with your supply resources:
Drone labs :http://casperelectronics.com/for-sale-2/
Voice of Saturn:http://store.curiousinventor.com/voice- ... synth.html
Music from Outer Space:http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/mfos ... T2007.html

But, arduino kit builders are used to much lower prices I think...

So there's a good note about markets.
And for no reason should you lowball the price of your product...
You don't make friends in business by giving it away... excellent quality, support, and contribution to the online community is key IMHO.
Most people perceive a higher value on higher priced items in comparison to the same item at BANNED basement deals.
Heck sparkfun adds a ton of "value" to their products with only red boxes for packaging! People love the boxes and buy from them because of that. (see their forums )
And having a enclosure option is huge and very profitable...

Don't feel bad if you feel you don't want to charge too much...
There's alot to learn and heed the advice from everyone everywhere in business...
Do NOT lowball your prices, or you will learn the hard way working with no personal gain, and spending much more time than you guessed it would take.
Learn from those who've done it and succeeded... don't learn the hard way!

This is all under the school of value sales over quantity sales.
I've done quantity(not kit biz)... big mistake. Hard to change prices later.
Much better to sell a product for 3x price and work 1/3 the effort and only sell 1/3 the volume ... than it is to sell 3 times quantity and have 3x work/stock/mailing for the same amount with lower profit margin (because parts cost 3x).
Remember - it's not just making a kit/product and then it's all gravy.
Shipping alone is a total bear - PITA at smaller volume.
Ok... sorry all - rambling again... CHEERS!

adafruit
 
Posts: 12151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:21 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by adafruit »

thats really good advice. we tell people all the time not to lowball but they cant help it and 6 months later they are full of regret. you can -always lower prices later-

User avatar
lyratron
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:14 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by lyratron »

Thanks for the awesome words of wisdom, everyone! I've been working around the clock to bring this thing to fruition, but I've been taking your words to heart and incorporating your suggestions.

We now offer the bare PCB and the complete AirHarp Shield kit at:

http://www.lyratron.com/Lyratron/Store.html

I feel horrible about charging friggin' $25 for a circuit board and $67 for a shield kit, but I took your advice and calculated these prices based on a 40% margin / 66% markup. Even so, we already made a sale! :D

Of course I'm working as fast as I can to bring our costs down so we can charge a more reasonable price for these things. I'd love to see the AirHarp become as affordable and ubiquitous as the harmonica, but you make a valid point - I can't do that if I put myself out of business.

The good news for anyone who can't afford our kit is that these things are really quick and easy to slap together from whatever parts you have lying around. The first AirHarp was built with an Arduino Nano on a $3 protoboard from Radio Shack. ;?)

~P

User avatar
lyndon
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:28 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by lyndon »

If people don't think it's worth $25 for the board, they simply won't buy it. You're not selling basic necessities of life that they must have to survive!

Never feel bad about pricing - the market will slap you around badly enough without you doing it to yourself :-)

One of the early lessons I learned at my first job when I found out that a little circuit that cost us $20 to build was sold for almost $400 was to price according to the market. Even at that 20x markup, we were still at least 40% below what the competition was charging for the same thing in a prettier package.
lyratron wrote:I feel horrible about charging friggin' $25 for a circuit board and $67 for a shield kit, <snip>

User avatar
lyratron
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:14 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by lyratron »

lyndon wrote: One of the early lessons I learned at my first job when I found out that a little circuit that cost us $20 to build was sold for almost $400 was to price according to the market. Even at that 20x markup, we were still at least 40% below what the competition was charging for the same thing in a prettier package.
Did I say our circuit boards were $25? I meant $300.

:P

itcamefrommars
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:25 am

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by itcamefrommars »

Code: Select all

/*
Another thing I think about when researching prices...
[i][b]At what purchasing power level do we plan to apply the 5x rule?  [/b][/i]

When you figured your cost and selling price... what quantities of component orders were you calculating in?
That seemed like a lot for the PCB... for the maker market.  Maybe not for the electro/glitch/noise crowd.

OK... here's what I've been thinking when planning... in simpler terms...
*/

int COST_50=$42;        //If ya gotta start here... you're investing 210... also ANSW_life_univ_ethng = 42... just btw
int COST_100=31;        //So if YOUR CURRENT COST is at say 31 for say 100 kits... 310 bucks a batch
int COST_1000=12;      //this is the nice price area... 12000 per batch though... don't wanna start here anyhow in case it flops :(
int COST_mouser=45;   //and the cost to One-Off it from mouser is say .... 45 (plus shipping or more if bought at different places)

void main()  {
     int PRICE_myprice =    COST_1000 * 5;      // =    12 * 5   = 60 TARGET NUMBER - YAY!
     //
     //now we can get rough profits
     //
     int PROFIT_50 = PRICE_myprice - COST_50;      //  whoa... only 24 buks
     int PROFIT_100 = PRICE_myprice - COST_100;  
     //
     // = 29 hmmm... there's the double the money thing 
     // will 2x markup work in the beginning and get me to 5x?
     //
     int PROFIT_1000 = PRICE_myprice - COST_1000;  // = 48!!!  OK NOW I'm at the 5x rule!
     //
     int RATIO_me2mouser= PRICE_myprice/COST_mouser;   // =   60/45 =   133%!  Yay!  I can sell it to the tinkerer crowd too!  Not bad!
     /*
         Sooooooo how long till I can get to the COST_1000 point? 
         Am I in for the long haul?
     */
     int SALES_monthly = 100;  // I really don't know much about what this number will be...
     int PROFIT_50_month = PROFIT_50 * SALES_monthly  // monthly profit selling so much per month when buying 50 kit batches
     int PROFIT_100_month = PROFIT_100 * SALES_monthly  // monthly profit selling so much per month when buying 100 kit batches
     int PROFIT_1000_month = PROFIT_1000 * SALES_monthly  // well hopefully more than 100 sales per month when you get here
     /*
          So that's respectively :  2400,  2900,  4800... IF it's 100 sales / month... 
                  200 sales / month at 1000 kit batches is 9600/month... now you can hire someone to do the postal so you can develope 
                  MORE EXCELLENT DESIGNS!  Hire a High School maker and you're spreading the OSHW love ...
                  
        Lets assume you fold 75% of profits back in....
      */
     int TIMETILL_COST1000_50 = COST_1000 * 1000  /  (0.75 * PROFIT_50_month);  //  6.5 months... roughly...
     int TIMETILL_COST1000_100 = COST_1000 * 1000 /   (0.75 * PROFIT_50_month);  //  5.5 months... IF you're getting 100 sales/month.

}

/*
Also consider costs such as 50 small orders from suppliers will cost ALOT more in shipping...  than 1 to 5 orders for bulk stocking practices.
And numbers can vary as quantity orders don't have huge saving margins on some parts... and what parts you are using.
That is another thing to think about!  If you are using a DAC... and picking between two parts that will both work well for your kit and cost the same... see which one might get a lot of savings when buying in bulk!  

Anyhow... what do ya'll think about those variable averages from the real world?
Packaging materials in quantity is also a concern and can take some room to store... How'd ya'll do this in the dorms?!?!?!
And at what purchasing power level do we plan to apply the 5x rule?
*/

itcamefrommars
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:25 am

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by itcamefrommars »

Oh hey... When I go to your site...
my script blocking causes the top bar links to not appear.
Might want to change that. At first I thought there were none!
Also hyperlinks in your text to the other pages would be nice.

I'd also need to see a video or some example before I bought because it's a custom interface.

but ya... the script blocking proofing would be good for your site.

User avatar
jersagfast
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: AirHarp Shield

Post by jersagfast »

lyratron wrote: I feel horrible about charging friggin' $25 for a circuit board and $67 for a shield kit, but I took your advice and calculated these prices based on a 40% margin / 66% markup. Even so, we already made a sale! :D
~P
Like everyone else is saying, coming from a geek and a musician, it's not a bad price at all. I have paid good money for my instruments because I know what they are worth, and instruments cost money. Especially good ones. Don't feel bad for a second about selling yours for a good price.

I am getting boards for a kit made right now, and guess what? It cost money! If people complain about the price, then they can download the files and have their own made. The likeliness of that happening? Slim to none at best. Especially after weighing the cost and time of getting boards manufactured.

Plus, if you sell low now, then raise the price later, you're a villain. But if you sell high now and lower you're price later, you're a hero. OR, sell high and don't lower your price at all later, maybe even raise it a few buck with v2.0 or new features. I run my own business, and everyone is dead right about this fact: Under pricing your products is a sure fire way to create a massive headache and possibly failure down the road.

Wish you the best, and I like your project!

Locked
Forum rules
Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!

Return to “Kitbiz”