There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

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Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.

What do you think about this misleading practice?

Let's take some deep breaths and calm down
5
33%
It is perfectly normal and everything is still the same
2
13%
It is normal for new owner, but it's probably bad for Eagle
2
13%
It is unfair to hide the fact that Eagle can still be used as freeware
1
7%
It is unfair, but we will use Eagle anyway
0
No votes
It is end of Eagle, good bye old friend
0
No votes
Eagle was inappropriate for us even before that
3
20%
We don't care
2
13%
 
Total votes: 15

smindinvern
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by smindinvern »

westfw wrote:That is VERY much like claiming that (software) object code is "completely open" because you can edit the binary file in hex with something like gdb...
This would be true iff vendors didn't forbid disassembling and altering that object code.
adafruit wrote:a gerber editor would be pretty handy, this is a great opportunity for you to come in and write a great tool for the OSHW community!
I've been working on one for the past couple months. It's been put on the back-burner in light of some more important things that have come up, though...

Shaos
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:41 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Shaos »

What about legal aspect of this problem? Is it kind of "gray zone"? Because free gerber editor means everybody is able to alter any existing gerber, let say remove old copyright and put its own name instead - it will be relatively easy to create a lot of legal problems that way...

P.S. Gerber RS-274X format is intellectual property of Ucamco

Agent24
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 am

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Agent24 »

I don't use Eagle if possible, I much prefer KiCAD - Free, no limitations, easy to use.

But best of all, which I prefer over Eagle is that the DRC runs in real-time and with a visual display so you can't stick a track too close to another, and violate your clearances.

With Eagle you can happily place tracks which violate clearance and you won't know until you finish and then it's too late, you have to go back and change everything.

It's like driving down the road with your eyes closed, then when you get to the end of the street, looking back and seeing if you hit anyone!

smindinvern
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by smindinvern »

Shaos wrote:What about legal aspect of this problem? Is it kind of "gray zone"? Because free gerber editor means everybody is able to alter any existing gerber, let say remove old copyright and put its own name instead - it will be relatively easy to create a lot of legal problems that way...
I don't see why it would create any problems. Gerber files are plain-text, so you don't need a special program to edit them in the first place. Plus you have the same problem with already existing eagle files. The only gerbers that would be out there are from the same OSHW projects

User avatar
westfw
 
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:01 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by westfw »

FWIW, LPKF's "CircuitCam" software that they sell/provide for use with their mechanical PCB routers has the ability to edit gerber files (or at least import gerber and then edit the results before exporting in the machine-specific format.) It's not a great editor, and I wouldn't want to use it for creating a whole PCB, but it's pretty handy for deleting some feature from a PCB that you don't want bother mechanically etching (or adding text ala sign-engraver style.)

Even the open source "gerbv" tool will let you edit gerber to the extent of deleting objects.

PS: KiCAD currently (last time I tried) works like BANNED on a Mac.

Agent24
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 am

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Agent24 »

westfw wrote:PS: KiCAD currently (last time I tried) works like BANNED on a Mac.
Yeah unfortunately it runs best on Windows or Linux, although you could multi-boot with either or both depending on which Mac you have :D

Shaos
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:41 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Shaos »

westfw wrote:Even the open source "gerbv" tool will let you edit gerber to the extent of deleting objects.
Hm, yes, you are right! I checked latest version of gerbv and it allows to delete selected region in one layer only, but region should be selected by rectangle and it is not possible to remove something from selected group or add something, also undo is not applied to this kind of operation.

Shaos
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:41 pm

Newark/Farnell

Post by Shaos »

CadSoftTech wrote:If you look closely at the recent brochure, this is an offering by Newark....
I think I know why I received this advertisement from Newark!
Recently I bought cutting tool from them.
Postal package came to me in this form (pretty funny I think ; )
Attachments
Package from UK
Package from UK
farnell-big.jpg (236.23 KiB) Viewed 2273 times

Agent24
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 am

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Agent24 »

Congratulations whoever was in the packing department that day.... :lol:

User avatar
dbc
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:37 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by dbc »

Why do open hardware projects use closed-source cripple-ware? At least two open source alternatives exist: gEDA and KiCAD. It is at the very least a rude slap in the face to the community to use Eagle for an open hardware project. IMHO it is also short-sighted and in some cases immoral.

The open hardware license discussions have left me deeply disappointed in that the concept of releasing open hardware designs in open file formats gets very little emphasis. I acknowledge that 100% open tool chains are neither necessary nor practical for every project. But the community needs an open hardware license that requires that all design files be in open file formats for which at last one open source editing tool exists. I wouldn't expect every project to use such a license, but it needs to be available as a choice.

*Grump*

User avatar
westfw
 
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:01 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by westfw »

Why do open hardware projects use closed-source cripple-ware? At least two open source alternatives exist: gEDA and KiCAD. It is at the very least a rude slap in the face to the community to use Eagle for an open hardware project. IMHO it is also short-sighted and in some cases immoral.
Frankly, this attitude really pisses me off. Cadsoft has been consistently and extraordinarily supportive of the hobbyist and open source communities, and it's far worse than a slap in the face to turn around and say that they're an unsuitable tool because they're not open source as well. Right up there with "I don't have to treat you like a human being because you don't share my religious beliefs."
If you want to encourage other tool vendors to provide freeware, this is sure not the way to do it.
If you want to nourish the infancy of OSHW, placing additional restrictions on tools isn't the way to do it, either.

adafruit
 
Posts: 12151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:21 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by adafruit »

dbc wrote:Why do open hardware projects use closed-source cripple-ware? At least two open source alternatives exist: gEDA and KiCAD. It is at the very least a rude slap in the face to the community to use Eagle for an open hardware project. IMHO it is also short-sighted and in some cases immoral.
tools don't matter. it will be nice to one day have lots of open source tools, but really - the tools do not matter.
dbc wrote:The open hardware license discussions have left me deeply disappointed in that the concept of releasing open hardware designs in open file formats gets very little emphasis. I acknowledge that 100% open tool chains are neither necessary nor practical for every project. But the community needs an open hardware license that requires that all design files be in open file formats for which at last one open source editing tool exists. I wouldn't expect every project to use such a license, but it needs to be available as a choice.
if we all waited for an open file format we wouldn't have OSHW, we need to build airplanes in the sky as they say. as you said " 100% open tool chains are neither necessary nor practical for every project" - OSHW is just getting started, open file formats are happening (cadsoft is doing one of them), the tools are getting better.

now that we have an OSHW definition someone can indeed make an OSHW license that required 100% OSS tools, will anyone want to use that license? not many, but some will. EMSL are the purest OSHW folks and eventually we'll see more (they use OSS all the way through, although some will debate about their computers and bios or something like that).

for now, the best way to see the change you seek is to do it.

cheers,
adafruit

Agent24
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 am

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by Agent24 »

adafruit wrote:if we all waited for an open file format we wouldn't have OSHW, we need to build airplanes in the sky as they say. as you said " 100% open tool chains are neither necessary nor practical for every project" - OSHW is just getting started, open file formats are happening (cadsoft is doing one of them), the tools are getting better.
I agree, they are not necessary, but KiCAD has been around for years and gEDA around even longer, I fail to see how anyone needs to wait for an open file format - they already exist!

adafruit
 
Posts: 12151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:21 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by adafruit »

Agent24 wrote:I agree, they are not necessary, but KiCAD has been around for years and gEDA around even longer, I fail to see how anyone needs to wait for an open file format - they already exist!
we think people are using other tools, eventually everything will write to open file formats - that's where it's all heading.

smindinvern
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: There is such thing as "freeware" Eagle [poll]

Post by smindinvern »

adafruit wrote: tools don't matter. it will be nice to one day have lots of open source tools, but really - the tools do not matter.
I'm guessing that you're referring strictly to the use of Eagle in OSHW designs, but more generally speaking, I don't think it takes much to show that that statement is completely false. A design that's released in altium designer will do little to no good for hobbyists. So yes, it follows the OSHW license, but does it really follow the spirit of open source? Well, I think that's a matter of opinion.

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