xox box sequencer inferior ? can we change that?

[3phase]

Hello,

please dont feel ofended when i ve to share an negative observation regarding the xoxbox...

Its no 303... not even close... on each gig i ve to go with the real one.. the xox just dont works..

why?

its the sequencer.. short before a gig i ve no time to write this thing.. and on stage? life writing patterns on stage impossible..

This is not an exclusive xoxbox problem..all clones share that.. probably because the developers never realy liked the 303 sequencer.. and thougt its difficult to use.. but the opposite is the case... its much more musical and direct in certain ways..

and it allows realtime input on stage of the timing information..so a trained 303 user goes between two bars in the write mode.. presses in time the realtime button and starts to write a variation of the pattern without anybody noticing.. one time after each other..always accessing the note storage and acc/slide setting of the previous pattern..

wow..thats performant !!.
try to do this with the xox sequencer.. dial in any 16th note..half an houer later?... forget it..

no way..

The alternativ Sokkos os has some nice features.. at least exsisting patterns can be modified and shifted there...things the original 303 cant do...


now... try to imagine.. if booth worlds would be combined..or ..just for the sake that xox is a 303 replacement.. just having an original 303 sequencer...

Wouldnt that be nice?


problem.. i know from patching sequencers in reaktor that all realtime input things are rather demanding..

and rewriting the sequencer is probably even more difficult than the sokkos mod that just adds functions on top of the known xox sequencer...


The xox os is open source..the processor probably more capabel than the originals 303 ones..

it should be possible to make the xox box a real 303 replacement..but how?

Anybody interested in having a real 303 sequencer for the xox? in ideal together with the benefits of the sokos os like shuffle and pattern shift..

And is anybody that has the skills in programing an os intersted in such a projekt?

Or.. how can i learn to write an own os?


In case somebody is interested that has some skills allready i am defenetly willig to assist with info regarding the usage of the real 303 sequecer and to to measurements on a real 303.... i ve the feeling that the gatelenghth in the xox is not wright. same sequence in the original 303 sounds allways more funky... must be something with the handling of the gate length...


the 303 sequencer has many features many people just dont know or never use.. all theese 303 styles that posses all 16th notes are a bad teacher to explore the real potential of 303...

for example that you can combine triolic notes with straigt ones in one bar.. or do realtime write over up to 8 bars...

all features you dont find in any clone.. but you hear them in many classical acid lines..especially in the good ones..

who never has used the triolic mode in the 303 hasnt used it all... its hard to understand that such an important part is missing in all clone sequencers..

again..probably because of the prefference to all16th acid lines of the programmers... 1 bar all 16th possesed lines ...

what is actually not the real acid.. but the euro trance version of it.. so most clones are only equipped for 1 bar writing and 16th notes...

from a musical perspektiv that is pretty castrated.. especially seeing that an 1980´s machine was able to do so much more..

The developer of the real 303 is defently a genius
I think to honour his development its not enough to just copy the circuit.. the sequencer is an integral part of the instrument..

[rv0]

this is a topic about the sequencer:
http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7441

new firmware on its way here:
http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15627


and yes, i totally agree with you. and i'm betatesting the new firmware as we speak, it's a huge improvement over the original firmware imo and it allows for much more rapid pattern development. strange that 5 years have passed before someone did it

[rv0]

or do realtime write over up to 8 bars...

really???

if you refer to the chaining capability, you can only chain up to 4 bars.

[3phase]

thats good news... if some input is needed let me know.. robin whitles web page has some itersting info about the sequencer timing of the original 303

[antto]

hi there
the gate length on the 303 is odd indeed
in a beat, there are 4 steps, each step is split in 2 parts, the note and the "gap" after it
anyone would think that the note length would be 0.5 (half a step) but on the 303 it's more like 0.525
otherwise, there is no rythm magic or voodoo in the 303, all notes are played right on, don't expect to find any shuffly-groovy stuff or humanization in there, nope

one more thing i noticed (but it could be just my x0x) the x0x VCA starts too fast, it "clicks"
the 303 starts fast too, but doesn't click like that (it's softer)

[3phase]

do you have the original 882 vca?

i will do some test with the gate lenght and post the result here... i think the correct lenght/ pause relation is important...

ther is no shuffle in the real 303 or wobbely timing... but it seems that accented notes are a bit later.. if this is really the case and circuit related it should be the case with the xox as well.. but maybe it s realted to the gate timing of the original 303? i will look into it later...

[Fiercefish]

I prefer the 303's sequencer myself, I can't understand how people think it is difficult to use, try an MC-4 or 202 for tricky (but very powerful) sequencers.

Having said that for most people the x0x sequencer is probably more useful, I quite like it but think it is not quite as good as the 303's, I don't really notice any huge difference in the way notes are handled but there is a slight difference in feel, which is fine by be as I already have 3 303's anyway

I do look foreward to the new firmware though

[3phase]

I prefer the 303's sequencer myself, I can't understand how people think it is difficult to use, try an MC-4 or 202 for tricky (but very powerful) sequencers.

Having said that for most people the x0x sequencer is probably more useful, I quite like it but think it is not quite as good as the 303's, I don't really notice any huge difference in the way notes are handled but there is a slight difference in feel, which is fine by be as I already have 3 303's anyway

I do look foreward to the new firmware though

the xox sequencer is more "usefull" because it features pattern copy and edit while running.. but the actual pattern creation sucks.. its a pretty retardet try and error thing or you type in after a score sheet.. nothing spontaious possible.. or quickly write what is in your head ...

regarding input the xox is actually the 202 sequencer design.. and we all know that this sucks...


It would be really great if antto succeds with his try to port original 303 abilitys..

as i said in ideal ther would be a features set of all important abilitys of the original 303 sequencer and nice enhancements
sokkos has brought to the xox users.. pattern shift..shuffle.. changing patteren lenght while running or rest to 1...

usefull stuff... but in the end of the day i would prefer a 100% 303 clone above anything else.. ther is a reason that the 303 is going up and up in the prices.. you pay now for a normal one a devilfish price...

So we can clearly see that the xox box hasnt affected the second hand prices of the real thing at all...

i think thats mainly because the writeability of the sequencer.

key features of the 303 sequencer..

pattern chaining

variable steplength per pattern..

triolic patterns, can be chained..

together with the above features that allows free rhytmical design up to 4 bars...


other important aspects:

realtime tab in put for timing information... accesible while running ( while beeing in write mode.. a limitation i wouldnt like to be ported )
with count in ( that is maybe not so necessary when machine is in external sync.. maybe as as switchable option?)

the main structural advantage.. timing information and note information have seperate memorys..

patterns share the note memory when having no own assigned to it... i ve forgotten how that logic works.. but i might find out or ...might be good also to develope an own logic to allow patterns to share or copy the note info of a specified pattern or just the previous pattern... could be nice..after all there was no techno music when the 303 was created...)

Also very important:

acc and slide are attributes of the pitch information and not of the timing position...

that is the important detail that allows the 303 to have all this funky variations of a pattern in a short time..

as darffader has said in another thread.. the original 303 actually leads you to a certain funkyness..

thats because you can work on the rhythm of an accented melody without changing the accent/pitch relation

[Fiercefish]

Hmm yeah, but I quite like the 202 sequencer, once mastered it can be used for very funky stuff once you venture outside of the default gate and step lengths, the MC-4 expands on this even further.

I do find I program different types of patterns on the x0x though, which in my book is ok for some things.

I have not used sokkos yet but it looks like a lot of fun, I like interacting with sequences and it looks like sokkos expands on this.

[3phase]

Hmm yeah, but I quite like the 202 sequencer, once mastered it can be used for very funky stuff once you venture outside of the default gate and step lengths, the MC-4 expands on this even further.

I do find I program different types of patterns on the x0x though, which in my book is ok for some things.

I have not used sokkos yet but it looks like a lot of fun, I like interacting with sequences and it looks like sokkos expands on this.

i would like a 303 replacement because my old 303 is dieing and to get a new is far too expensiv wright now... but considering the time and money i ve in the xoxbox its not so expensiv after all in relation what it gives to you.. its smaller better looking/sounding ..more lightwight and battery powred and keeps its value...

except a real 303 replacement pops up.. something like the xoxbox with a better 303 style sequencer



i hope antto finds help with his questions regarding the programming of the xoxbox..actually people that have comercial interest in the xoxbox should try to support his effort..

a xox with a better sequencer has a much higher market value.. sofar the argument of the same circuit is very missleading.. the xox dont sounds and behaves like a 303.. and there is no way to rewrite patterns on stage ...

realtime tab input is a quite heavy feature that is missing here.. besides that the split between note and timing memory is one of the key specialitys of the real 303... when you dont like that why bothering to have a 303 clone at all than?

[Fiercefish]

Yeah realtime tap is great, I use it a lot.

[antto]

my new sequencer needs differend button labels on the panel
while developing it, i made myself an overlay panel (it's stupid, made of paper with the new labels written with a pen) there are a few buttons missing and so it's not the same as on the 303, but darffader figured a compromise way to do all of that, so it's not that bad..
on the other hand, having the 16 bank LEDs is very nice, you can see where you are while writing Time data, or when setting pattern length

unfortunately there isn't much space in the microcontroler, my code must be very tight
btw, what's wrong with your 303? if it's the CPU, there are replacements i think, Ultra303 (not sure if it's available)
in any case - don't throw it away ;]

i've spent some years examining the 303 (mostly in audio aspects) but i've never actually seen a real one, and especialy the sequencer interface
good thing is darffader has been very helpful whenever i've had questions, and there are some (too few) videos on youtube about pattern programming that gives me a hint about how the interface looks

btw, the thing that in PitchMode you can see notes beyond the 16 for this pattern is very interesting
one more thing about the patterns that is interesting is that they are stored in 16bytes
let me grab my calculator 16*(key+UDAS) = 16 bytes already, and there is no room for time data
but anyway.. the internet is filled with false information and myths about the 303

and btw, accented notes are not delayed or anything, i'm telling you.. there is no voodoo in the VCA gate, it's right on, the only thing unusual is that the length isn't exactly half a step, it's a little bit more (0.525)

do you have the original 882 vca?

i've no clue

a nice thing that the 303 could do (which the x0x (in fact, any real clone) is able to do too) with a different software is drum-like sounds
there is a trick, you can start a new note with the sliding mechanism open from the beginning, imagine the note starts high and drops low (that gives you a Kick sound)

[3phase]

if asked for the 882 vca because i dont know the clicking problem.. maybe others can answer if the replacement vca you probably have is causing more click... the 882 has less high freqemcys than the newer replacement in the xoxbox kits...


will your software have shuffle aswell? and are you planing to share or sell it when its finished? any idea when it will be finished ?


within the 303 circut the acc signal has to go thru a little capaciator.. that acts like an envelope on the accent.. so accented notes appear later.. i heard it around 3 ms.. but i never measured it... maybe this cap is faulty in your xox and therfore yours is clicking?

[3phase]

and regarding the memory data in the 303.. it must have different memory locations for note and gate data, otherwise it wouldnt be possible that patterns can share a pool of notes..

when you erase all memory in a 303 bank.. and type in 3 notes.. all patterns in the bank will share this 3 notes.. only when you start writing in pitchmode new patern dedicated pitchdata is written.. when you add more notes in this pattern the first notes will be from the newly stord data,, everynote that exceeds this count will use the 3 notes of the first pattern than..

without gurantie.. it was 1993 when i dealt heavily with that functionality...


however.. in case your 16 byte info is true.. maybe its true for only one of the memorys.. the gate or the pitch memory...


there is one interesting quirk in the slide function of the 303.. its a pitch atribute but effects the gate timing..

but better check that yourself http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/303-slide.html

i once patched a 303 sequencer exactly after mr whitles specs in the nord modular g2 and it behaved exactly like my 303.. so i guess his info is rather accurate...

[3phase]

btw, what's wrong with your 303? if it's the CPU, there are replacements i think, Ultra303 (not sure if it's available)
in any case - don't throw it away ;]

its just getting old.. it is one that was on the market in the 80´s allready.. most 303´s on the market are deliverd in the later 90´s after the unsold stock of 303´s entred the market.. the rumor is that ther was originally as much 303´s build as 606´s..while the 606 was selling good nobody wanted the 303´s..so most of them stayed in japan stored away...

in the early 90´s it was hard to get a 303..in the late 90´s any teenage raver had 2 ... all this later machines looked brand new and are still in better shape than my old one.. the pots start wearing out.. some of them are not easy to replacesuffers... colour goes away.. soldring points break on the circuit board regulary now.. moved and played a lot.. i actually would like an replacement..or a new 303..

i am actuall close to sell my xox.. but dont know if i get adequate money for it because i wasnt able to source the wright enclosure and to build one myself..

actually in this thread i wanted to know if there is a way to optimize the xox so it maybe can stay with me..

i lately had a gig where i played some 303 solos.. quite long ago that i did that regulary.. i would like to be able to such things with the xox..but..

the way transpose and pattern select work with the 303 are very important for that..

maybe i analyze that again..

its pretty important that you can switch very fast between pitch variation an pattern variation..

with the 303 you press on button with the left hand while the right selects the pitch.. in the moment you release the pitch button you select patterns again.. the new selcted pattern dont keeps the last pitch transpose except you go back into pitch transpose mode before the pattern actually starts ...

i ve to check that again.. i just can say.. the way its working on a original 303 is nice on stage..

with the xox its a bit different its a left handers machine wher you select pitch with the right hand and do the selections than with the left..or with one hand?

thats maybe another problem i ve with the xox.. to relearn how to touch an instrument after 20 years of usage is quite hard.. however possible..

my bigger problem with the xox is defenetly pattern writing...

however.. a left sided activation key for pitch transpose would be nice,, the extra octave select buttons are ok on the left side.. but the activation of transpose mode would be nice left..to be able to quickly chnage between transpose and pattern select...

the xox has a higher transpose range.. thats nice.. but within the first octave up..the one we have only in the real03.. this should be accesible without secondary selections..

so one button press on the left...any key you press than with the wright hand wil transpose the pattern to that key..

as secondary selection.. .extra octave uo..octave down.. in ideal without the beep notes of the xox when you exceed the note range... truncation of such noteswold be better in my opinion..or instead of the beep it should repeat the last pitch info..

probably too much code? anyway.. its your software projekt..just wanted to tell where i miss things in the xox...

IN the end of the day only a 303 is a 303..nothing will change that.. but the xox is a close relative and can benefit from having more in common with the 303...