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Re: n0nx0x2

by gelabs on Tue May 02, 2017 2:58 pm

Indeed, that works. :)
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Re: n0nx0x2

by gelabs on Thu May 25, 2017 12:03 pm

The x0xb0x drifts (it's slowing down) slowly while being slaved to midiclock when using MIDI-to-DinSync prediction. Turning prediction off fixes the problem.

Also, is it possible to have another additional operating mode for the sequencer : think of a SH-101 for example, you have a list of notes and you can trigger them independently of the length of the sequence. Say I have a list of five notes (different or same) and 11 steps ("trigs") with slides and accents; if I press play, then the five notes will never play at the same "place" when the sequence loops, ie. they will sometimes be accented or slided depending on which step ("trig") they encounter. Dunno if that makes sense, English is not my native language :)
Anyway, that would make interesting and more evolving sequences possible. Just an idea, I couldn't do it myself outside of puredata ...
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Re: n0nx0x2

by antto on Thu May 25, 2017 12:44 pm

it drifts and slows down!? that's weird
what are you using to generate the MIDIsync?

the only time i've had midi slowing down (or was it speeding up) was when i was generating MIDI from a sort-of DAW (SynthEdit actually) where (iirc) i wasn't using ASIO for the audio, so stuff desync'ed slowly in software.. stopping the DAW dsp process and then starting it again fixes that issue (but then it starts drifting again)

but based on what you said, this can't be the issue..

about the other question, it's not very clear to me how that should work (i'm not familiar with the SH-101 at all)
but the sequencer already is carying a heavy burden - the "scattor" (FreezeFrame), so adding yet another feature which mangles the pattern data while playing it would be complicated
this sort of thing could be added into a sepparate "mode" .. we got just one left (mode C)

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Re: n0nx0x2

by gelabs on Thu May 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Well, midiclock is generated by Roland TR-8 (with "precise" timing, not the 808-emulated one), so I guess it's not the best clock available :)

The "freeze frame" feature is indeed a nice thing I am beginning to learn.

As for how the 101 sequencer works, well, it's just a list of pitches and you trig them as notes by sending pulses in the 101 from an 808 for example.
The thing is, the melody evolves because the notes have not always the same value on a given step, they shift along the sequence.

Like this : ( "_" is a rest, "O" is a gate), the list of pitches is C,D,E,F,G, pattern is 16 steps long :

Code: Select all | TOGGLE FULL SIZE
O _ _ O _ O O _ O _ _ _ O _ O _ / O _ _ O _ O O _ O _ _ _ O _ O _ / O _ _ O _ O O _ O _ _ _ O _ O _ /
C _ _ D _ E F _ G _ _ _ C _ D _ / E _ _ F _ G C _ D _ _ _ E _ F _ / G _ _ C _ D E _ F _ _ _ G _ C _ /


Ah, there is actually a great depiction of this thing here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfKzHpsQkxo

Edit: I just realized that you can do that on the Roland TB-03 ...
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Re: n0nx0x2

by antto on Sat May 27, 2017 10:50 am

so then it might be missing MIDI clock ticks
you can test that:
- run the master, check that both machines run "together" at first
- push the tempo on the master high (this should hopefully speed things up)
- wait for some time, and try to notice if the x0x "slows down" or glitches or anything
- bring the tempo down - see if the x0x is really running "behind"
- bring the tempo down a lot - see if that scales the lateness of the x0x - if it does - it means that the slave (the x0x) has missed one or more clock ticks
- press stop on the master, and then press play - does the x0x start and run "together" with the master as in the beginning? it probably would

now, it might be a good idea to also use another slave device, some other drum machine or something, preferably something from a supposedly "good brand"
because if both slave devices "fall behind" - the issue might be in the master (but i doubt, since it's a Roland, it should be decent)

and btw, which version of n0nx0x2 are you running?

as for the other thing, i watched the video.. this looks cool, but it will need some thinking in order to get it to "fit" and "make sense" with the rest of the sequencer
basically, you want to use the patterns which you already have, only as a list of notes, but trigger them externally
this will not work with the normal pattern playing stuff (the modes on the right side of the selector) but it can be (maybe) added to pattern-trigger mode, or (worst case) put on a dedicated mode

essentially, you need to have the pattern/chain selection mechanism available, so you can select a pattern or a chain of patterns like usual
but instead of playing those patterns like usual - the sequencer will only use their pitch data, and wait for "trigger"
now, the only thing i can think of as "trigger" is MIDI
so when a midi note comes in - the sequencer will play a note from the pattern/chain, and move to the next one, and loop when it reaches the end
this is very doable, but there are a few philosophical questions about the details:
- should the length of the played note equal that of the trigger note, or should it be fixed? should it even be "quantized" to the sync clock?
- what happens with pitches from the pattern which have the "slide" attribute? does it get discarded?
- what happens when you overlap trigger notes? slide? slide only if the pitch had the slide attribute?
etc..

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Re: n0nx0x2

by gelabs on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:51 pm

Sorry, I totally forgot about this thread :( ...
So, the clock thing is solved, I now use the Zaquencer midiclock but the problem was related to my midi dispatch (usb).
About the sequencer, would it be possible to have the two lists (time and notes) with different length (number of steps) ? Or even better: three lists (gate/rest - note - DUAS) ?

Regards.
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Re: n0nx0x2

by antto on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:27 pm

gelabs wrote:About the sequencer, would it be possible to have the two lists (time and notes) with different length (number of steps) ? Or even better: three lists (gate/rest - note - DUAS) ?

if you mean in general (so that it's usable via pattern-play/track-play modes) the answer is no
this would break lots of things
n0nx0x2 technically doesn't have "gate/rest" as an atribute

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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:42 am

Hey there, I've just seen the facebook page for the nOnxOx2 and there is a xOx in a aluminium box and I was wondering how that was possible because rvo said that they dont fit into the xoxshop.de enclosures or was it that the noOnxOx faceplates dont fit the metal boxes, cant remeber which. Anyway it appears as if the 2 2200 caps have been laid down horizontally with wires attatching them to the io board. Forgive me I'm a complete noob and I'm just getting around to making the kit thats been gathering dust for a year. Also I was considering putting some good caps in place of the bog standard ones that came with my kit or that just overkill as I was thinking Nichicon PW series or Elna simlic II's for the electrolytics but I think I'm being a little to anal. Its not a high end audio amplifier at the end of the day. Also just seen that its not really possible to fit flat leds into the nOnxOx faceplate unless I try to dremmel the led holes a little but I dont want to make a mess so might have to go for the roundies, just wanted some nice flat panels. Anyway I digress, can you tell me if nOnxOx is poss in a metal case, I want room for mods to. Let me know what you think and any pointers and help would be very much appreciated. Just read in this thread that you are working on a new version of the OS, not new but you know what I mean, any ideas when that may be released. Ive never used a xOxbOx so any changes implemented wont make a difference to me as ive never used even sokkos. It would be nice that when I finish mine (God Knows How Long That Will Be) I could start with the fresh new version. Ive made sure I am getting everything I need before starting because I would like to learn about elctronics as I go and make something else after this project. Ive always been a sucker for those bizzare tones of the 303 and its the only sound I never tire of where as other sounds can quickly become old or over used, strange that. The 303 is deffinitley a Marmite thing, you either love it or hate it.
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Re: n0nx0x2

by antto on Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:51 pm

n0nx0x2 doesn't run on the normal x0xb0x cpu (atmega162) and requires a cpu upgrade
this upgrade resembles a small PCB with an atmega2561 and some 40 pins which plug into the socket for the atmega162
now, depending on the enclosure for the x0xb0x, this CPU board might collide with something
it certainly fits into the normal Pactec case

now, there are a bunch of different "alu" cases for the x0xb0x circulating around, and i don't have any of them, so i can't say whether it would fit or not
but in the worst case scenario, if it doesn't fit - it's possible to replace the 40 header pins on the cpu board with two 20-pin flat cables, soldered on the PCB, and then solder two 20-pin headers on their other end (or a 40pin IC socket)
then, you can plug that into the socket, and stick the cpu board into a small plastic bag or something and just throw it in there like a tumor
this is not very elegant, but it should work

the other issue is the front panel
i've made the front panel design for the normal Pactect case
but, as i already mentioned, there are a number of different kinds of "alu" cases for the x0xb0x
notice how the x0x front panel has 7 screw holes - 4 at the top, and 3 at the bottom
those holes match holes on the mainboard and they sandwich the top half of the pactec case (thru only 4 screws on the corners)
there are some alu cases which conform to that, and they have those 7 screws in those same locations
but i've seen also at least one kind of alu case for the x0x which doesn't have any holes/screws on the front panel

so depending on that, the situation becomes a little bit specific
in the worst case scenario, you could take the vector graphic files for the n0nx0x2 panel and print them in 1:1 scale on some thick paper, then cut the holes (that's a fiddly job) for the pots/buttons/LEDs, and overlay that on top of the existing panel

for the actual n0nx0x2 firmware, there are a bunch of videos on my youtube channel
note: they are in two sepparate playlists since some show official features, while some show experimental things which will not be part of the firmware (like the drum sequencer video) or early "test" variants of official features
there are also a few "acid jam" videos where i've used the thing to make "music"

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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:56 pm

I have a xOxlarge and I just assumed the the facebook page was yours with it being xOxlarge. There is a xOxlarge inside an alu case and like i said Wim said the faceplates dont fit alu cases so was wondering what it was. Who case is that then I wonder
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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:15 pm

Do you know where else does alu cases, I read once somewhere that there is a certain kind of Pactec metal case, cant remember the stock number but it has a sloping side and and a flat bit at the rear top end.
Do you think replacing the caps is really worth it and what do you think of a 2vco mod. 2vcos sound great on an analogue synth but im not convinced about the xoxbox.
What is the extra eeprom for on the xoxlarge and im gutted flat leds dont fit onto the faceplate, i might have to dremmel the holes slightly, ill see when i get to that stage, im probably just being picky for the sake of it. should just start to build the damn thing before i think about mods and the leds at this tage. i just wanted everything ready so there is no stopping and starting. im going to do the subatomic mods and most are just as easily done from the start so there is no desoldering having to be done. i spoke with Lars and Wim when i got my xoxlarge and panel together with the tact switches and buttons a res pot and a Ba662 clown with offset trimmer, they helped me source those parts are you one of them or Anton Savov, thats why i thought the xox on the facebook page was yours.
Kevin fom subatomicglue said to just build the standard kit and not worry to much about changing the caps and not spend too much money, i guess hes right coz im thinking about using Elna simlic II's and they are high grade audio caps but i was just thinking of a clean analogue path but i guess its not audio like an amp i guess. This is the thing i get lost in worring about stupid unimportant things in the scheme of things i guess.Is it really worth spending a lot of money on decent caps for the xoxbox or not. This is my first project so i want it to be right.
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Re: n0nx0x2

by antto on Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:44 pm

i don't "facebook", i checked the x0xlarge page and i think i saw what you mean
that case looks like the x0xsh0p.de alu enclosure:
Image
and it seems like there's no problem fitting the cpu upgrade in there, as far as i can tell from the picture on facebook

notice how it lacks the 7 mounting holes on the top
also, the front panel is bigger than the normal x0xb0x front panel

one option for this situation is to use the overlay approach, but it will be slightly smaller than the front, so it may look a bit odd

i haven't heard about a metal pactec case
afaik, the pactec P10 case is plastic (top and bottom half) with metal (i think) panels for the front and rear


the cpu upgrade was developed here in the forum, between a few people, one of them went to make the PCBs, they were called "Vx"
that person kinda often vanished, and it took like 2 years for the first and only ~10 prototype PCBs to reach a few people around the world (including me)
so we got kinda sick of that and we made a compatible PCB with slightly better ergonomics and called it "x0xlarge", which is most importantly available and obtainable
the EEPROM on the cpu upgrade board originates from the "Vx" board, so it was copied to the x0xlarge, but it turns out that the pin mapping is not ideal.. so basically forget about that EEPROM
the cpu upgrade will use the EEPROM on the mainboard of the x0xb0x as normal
guest adjusted the stock firmware to run on the atmega2561, and also modified an stk500v2 bootloader to run on it
i then picked up that bootloader and modified it further to add LED animation (progress bar and stuff) and also added MIDI SYSEX support.. this bootloader is called x0xb00t2.1, and all x0xlarge cpus come with it

i am also the guy coding n0nx0x2, but the project is a collaboration between the usual suspects - me, rv0, xlarge, and a few others

about the x0xb0x mods: this may discourage you, but i like the x0xb0x because i like the TB-303 sound
the TB-303 is best without mods (IMO), and so is the x0xb0x
you could of course modify it to death, like the devilfish, the borg, or modify your x0xb0x to death with mods like the subatomic mods, the x0xi0.. there is also the recent synthesizer "Avalon" which resembles a TB-303 surrounded by carefully upgraded synthesizer extras like extra envelopes, sub-oscillators, and what not (and unlike the others mentioned, the Avalon has been designed to look/work like a synthesizer and not like a butchered circuit-bended m0nster)
but all of these are really (IMO) ruining the 303
the 303 is all about restricting you to only be able to produce this one specific and highly unique sound, and only move within the limited ranges of its few parameters
extending those limits in any way really just blurs the uniqueness and moves this synthesizer closer to any of the other general-purpose boring monophonic subtractive synthesizers
yes, most of those modification "kits" claim that the mods can be switched off or bypassed and you can still get the original sound out (and this claim is even true.. for some of them..) but that's not the point..
the point is that if you have just 6 knobs - you'll tweak them and no matter what you do - you'll only get the 303 sound, which, if you love it to your bones - will always make you happy
while if you have 20 knobs.. you'd still tweak ALL of them
yes you could in theory set 14 of them to their neutral positions and only tweak the remaining 6 to keep the thing in "303 theritory" .. but that's like masochism.. every knobs begs to be tweaked

so my advise is to just avoid the mods
there are a few small mods (which don't involve exposing potentiometers/switches outside of the case) like adding a trimpot to adjust your max resonance level, a trimpot to adjust the square wave PW, and a trimpot to adjust (remove) any DC offset before the VCA
i'm "okay" with these, they don't severly change the sound/behavior of the synth (when used sanely)

expensive capacitors? where would you put them? why do you think they will improve anything? are you talking about electrolytic or non-polarized caps?
afaik, the TB-303 is more noisy than the x0xb0x
also, this is a synthesizer, and in many places it just plays with voltages (which are relatively small), and not so much with currents
the recommended AC-AC adaptor rating for a x0xb0x is 500mA, but actually the analog synth circuit draws much less than that
check the schematic, check pictures of disassembled TB-303s to see what parts they use, then you decide

if you want clean audio, a better option is to use a digital 303.. a DAW plugin for example, or digital hardware like the TB-3/TB-03 (except those two completely fail to reproduce the accent properly)

the noise level in my x0xb0x has not been an issue for me so far

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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

who is afaik
I agree with you about the rawness of the 303 and totally agree with the limitations it poses and as you say a 303 is a 303 nothing more nothing less.
I dont facebook myself i just googled as to what the extra eeprom was for and saw the facebook page.
Brian castro ie xoxio is avalon
I was asking your opinion on waht you thought about changing the caps but deep down kinda knowing i was drifting into audio amplifier territory and not synth building so kinda knew the answer really.
As for mods again i agree about mods and effects in the same breath, if done subtly and tastefully to enhance something or a sound then thats ok but most of the time like you say it drowns the original essence of the music or sound whatever.
So many people use effects badly to the point of a bloody awful noise. I love noise in some certain aspects ofcourse but done at the right time in the right way.
As I said i originaly spoke to a Lars Ohgren with regards to the xoxlarge and he suggested i buy the panel and xoxlarge from Wim Vanheste so i got my xoxlarge about a year agoand am just getting around to building the box now as i said the only experiment i might do i think is try the ba662 clown with the dc offset trimmer. I obviously have a Ba661 tht came with the kit i purchased over a year ago.
Have you tried one of those clones or do you have an original Ba662 or the ba661. I think instead of trying the mods ill try to make some external effect pedals to manipulate the sound.
At least ill save my self a silly amount on getting carried away before ive evn started to build the thing. Youve convinced me to not be so silly as i love the sound of the 303 which is why i bought the kit in the first place.
Ill save up for a yocto2 perhaps that looks like a cool project and the nava 808 and 909 re-creations.
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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:25 pm

Im guessing afaik is one of these anacronyms is it.
It just occured to me, I thought you were talking to someone called afaik.
Now i feel my age.
Im not up on this kind of talk, i dont communicate with anyone over the net and dont do text talk either.
Nice to meet someone who is addicted to that bloody facebook either, a refreshing change.
Where ever you go people have their heads down into their phones constantly.
Its getting quite an epidemic i think and not funny either, worrying i hink but there you go
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Re: n0nx0x2

by kid303 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:28 pm

I cant seem to find it now but im sure i saw a pactec metal box the other day i cant find it now,
Doh my bad it was a Hammond 1456RL1
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Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.