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OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem
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Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!
Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.

Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

by adafruit on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:51 am

richms wrote:I have bought several of the "china-duinos" - mainly the mega's. Some were ok, some I have had issues with. Tracks breaking off one of them - not very well attached to the board. Reset button on one broke off. Ok for me because I know what I am doing. If a beginner to arduino got a dodgey one where a couple of port pins were on tracks that they had cracked etc then it does nothing but damage for the arduino brand.


yah, most we've seen sound like the ones you've had issues with (or worse). it doesn't exactly damage the arduino brand when someone gets a bad knock-off from ebay, the buyer will quickly find out that what they have is not a real arduino when they try to get support, return it or anything like that.

it usually ends in the beginner never buying what seems to be too good of a deal from ebay. we have a lot of customers who email us saying ebay was their first choice, but never again. everyone has bad ebay experiences :(

cheers,
adafruit

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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

by picdude777 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:09 am

This will be my last post on these forums since this is clearly not a place for any kind of constructive discussion.

The replies to virtually any area of discussion have been clearly biased, and in quite a few cases semi-hostile and absolutely in now way constructive or usefully informative for others visiting these forums. Simple concepts like outlining what makes an effective EC "widget" website (all points of which are the core of this company's operating strategy), were replied to with peculiar semi-accusatory request for examples.

The topic that is the gigantic elephant in the room of FCC regulations was replied to in an almost comically ham-fisted avoidance of what is a basic yes/no answer to what should be a fairly simple matter of public record. Clearly there's a significant exposure to risk in this area, and maybe that's the message that really needs to come out, rather than one of "we worked hard on that issue..." :roll:

It's certainly a personality-centric issue, but it's very unfortunate and sad actually for a company that apparently prides itself on a willingness to share. I was hoping for vibrant and useful discussion and we received nothing of real value. Pity...
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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

by adafruit on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:00 am

it appears you went back and removed the text from your posts, we had a feeling you would do that after you really thought hard about it since you said some pretty mean spirited things about a lot of good people, companies, projects and communities :(

we're guessing you probably would never want any customers or others in the electronics community to read all that. your comments were really over-the-top, and you're the first commenter ever here to go back and delete what you previously said. you joined these forums and deleted your own comments all within 48 hours!

just to be clear - you're always welcome here, and passion is good! just be good to good to each other and stick to the few reasonable rules for this forum topic. you'll always see lively discussions about open-source hardware here, everyone manages to be polite and add value, there are a lot of good discussions. we have opinions and we don't expect 100% of everyone to agree with them, some of our opinion may not even be that popular depending how you feel about open-source!

any time you put your opinion out there it opens you up to people not agreeing with it, open-source hardware is like that too. we'll get more people scrutinizing (and possibly improve) what we do, opinions are like that - we've changes our minds about a lot of things! open-source is a business and philosophical choice, so you'll hear a lot of strong opinions on it.

most/all companies are reluctant to share any opinions on any topics at all. could we lose a customer over a strong opinion about something, maybe - but in your case you specifically say you prefer to purchase trademark infringing cloned hardware from ebay :(

picdude777 wrote:The replies to virtually any area of discussion have been clearly biased, and in quite a few cases semi-hostile and absolutely in now way constructive or usefully informative for others visiting these forums. Simple concepts like outlining what makes an effective EC "widget" website (all points of which are the core of this company's operating strategy), were replied to with peculiar semi-accusatory request for examples.


biased towards open-source hardware in our customer forums for open-source hardware, yes of course! asking about your soon-to-be-released product you want assistance with in our open-source hardware kit business forum is completely reasonable. your responses indicate you don't see any value in open-source hardware, that's unfortunate!

we will be on the look out for your not open-source, "arduino-compatible" maybe named *duino product as you somewhat described it, good luck!

picdude777 wrote:The topic that is the gigantic elephant in the room of FCC regulations was replied to in an almost comically ham-fisted avoidance of what is a basic yes/no answer to what should be a fairly simple matter of public record. Clearly there's a significant exposure to risk in this area, and maybe that's the message that really needs to come out, rather than one of "we worked hard on that issue..." :roll:


it's not, but that might be your perception! this is why we said it will be hard to find specific answers because this is involves legal/insurance/engineering and a lot of very specific things. you'll hear "it depends".. the most from any expert and you won't see companies offer to dispense specific public advice in these matters for you not-released product. a lot of advice you'll see is "well at my old job the legal team said x,y,z" was/wasn't needed - but they usually say legal team!

your needs and questions are beyond "basic yes/no answers and simple matters of public record". if you are concerned about your specific product you really need to work with an expert/consultant. that's a very fair response. not everyone does their own taxes either! we wouldn't give you specific tax advice either.

we try to make this really clear on the forum rules: Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions! again, this is our company web site, we don't have many rules but this is one of them.

picdude777 wrote:It's certainly a personality-centric issue, but it's very unfortunate and sad actually for a company that apparently prides itself on a willingness to share. I was hoping for vibrant and useful discussion and we received nothing of real value. Pity...


it's vibrant and filled with great personalities! value sometimes comes from what you put in. we've helped many many people get their kit biz going, we're very proud of that! here's a post in this forum today, you can read a lot like these, it's too bad your dead against open-source community values we would have enjoyed helping you with an open-source hardware project... read it and all the others:
viewtopic.php?f=26&p=118549#p118549

lyratron wrote:Dear Ada, I'm greatly indebted to you for the time and expertise you've lent me! I'm sure you'll agree that time is the most valuable of all commodities. I deeply appreciate it and I hope to return the gesture some day.
...

Thanks for the tip on cheaper PCB fab houses! I'm setting up accounts with them as we speak.
...

You guys are so awesome. For what it's worth, I intend to frequent your shop for every possible part from now on. I see now that you do a lot more than just "sell parts". Yours is a business model the world desperately needs! :wink:
Gratefully Yours,
~ Peter


we love helping people who want to do open-source hardware kits and making businesses! we're proud of this and the people who have gone on to make great businesses!

picdude777, we think we did a good job suggesting resources, links to active discussions, things to consider and had some reasonable questions for you. we spent a lot of time on this too. in your previous posts you've just dished out insults to the open-source hardware community.

we think we've been more than fair considering you're not an adafruit customer, you do not do open-source hardware (and indicate you don't plan to) you said you don't care about supporting projects like the arduino... you think "fair wages" and "sustainable production" is nonsense. you ignored the rules of the forum repeatedly and the spirit here even after we politely asked you *many times*. it sounds like our customer support forums, for our open-source hardware business not match your values. don't take it personally, we do not! it's totally cool, this isn't for everyone - we know we're not going to be perfect for everyone!

thanks,
adafruit (phil)

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Re: OSHW draft deffinition and the kitbiz ecosystem

by brucef on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:19 pm

adafruit wrote:we're willing to buy what you consider a "better" one and check it out. we'll pay for it, the shipping and even give you a real arduino in return. email support@adafruit.com and we'll gladly do the pepsi challenge!

Damn, I wish picdude777 would take you up on this rather than disappearing.

I'd love to hear a good analysis of a "better" board (Arduino or otherwise) from an engineering team who knows their hardware production processes as well as Adafruit does. Can better Chinese manufacturers consistently deliver top quality devices at much lower prices just by managing other factors (labour cost, supplier proximity, rents, taxes, etc) or are even the best cheap products technically inferior?

Analyzing one board won't define a whole industry, but it would make for an interesting snapshot.
- Bruce

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