I'm working on a personal project that I would like to make into an open source kit, but the supplies for one kit come to around $85. What I'm reading about markup (mostly on this forum), I want to multiply by 2.75 to cover markup and reselling, which puts it at $233 (a really expensive kit). I've seen suggestions on this forum to offer just the PCBs (and a parts list), and to offer the full kit. That seems like a good idea, but I wonder if the kit is just not terrible viable at this price and I should not make the effort.
The project is: http://www.plainlystated.com/2011/09/ad ... -led-grid/
The costs are:
25: LED strips
20: simple laser-cut stand
8: power cable
14: atmega + misc electronics
10: controller
8: PCB
Total: 85
The prices already reflect trying to get stuff at bulk-discounts (for a small definition of bulk).
Any thoughts are welcome
Thanks,
Patrick
Unrealistically Expensive Kit
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Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!
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- sircastor
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:46 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
When I am putting together a kit and I realize my price seems out of whack, I start to look at accomplishing the same thing with different components.
*One thing that stands out to me is your laser-cut stand. $20/stand? Laser Cutting is probably not the way to produce this en-masse if that's the wholesale price to you, unless it's *very* specialized. Could you cast this in a mold and pour it?
*What are the specialized Electronics? An ATmega can't be much more than $2-3, so you still have $10 of electronics? What components are you using? Where are you getting them from?
*Could an ATtiny do the job of the ATMega?
*How big is your PCB? Can you move around components to make it smaller?
You know your project better than anyone, but I'd be willing to guess that there are some options in there somewhere.
*One thing that stands out to me is your laser-cut stand. $20/stand? Laser Cutting is probably not the way to produce this en-masse if that's the wholesale price to you, unless it's *very* specialized. Could you cast this in a mold and pour it?
*What are the specialized Electronics? An ATmega can't be much more than $2-3, so you still have $10 of electronics? What components are you using? Where are you getting them from?
*Could an ATtiny do the job of the ATMega?
*How big is your PCB? Can you move around components to make it smaller?
You know your project better than anyone, but I'd be willing to guess that there are some options in there somewhere.
- george_graves
- Posts: 342
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:10 am
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
There are something things that if you know you're only going to sell a limited amount of, that you have to charge more for, for a bunch of reasons.
You need to re-coup the time to design the kit, more work to sell each one, etc.
You need to re-coup the time to design the kit, more work to sell each one, etc.
- 48x24x48x
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:50 am
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
Your electronics components looks expensive. And the PCB at USD8 is a lot (I mean, really a lot!).
- lyndon
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:28 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
It depends. Mostly on what the kit is for. If it's an instrument for an amateur race car, then $85 is peanuts - that's not even the price of a tire. If it's a blinky "Cylon" light, then $85 is ridiculous.
Coming from it as a customer, 90% of the time I'd be OK with an $8 PCB because it will take more than that in effort for me to make one, even if the parts are cheaper. I generally think of the PCB as the most "value added" part of a kit since odds are I have most of the components I need, but the PCB represents a lot of work. So I think you should always consider selling just the PCB and the parts list if people ask for it.
In the end, you have to charge whatever it takes for you to not lose money and for it to be worth your time. If $85 is that price point, so be it.
Coming from it as a customer, 90% of the time I'd be OK with an $8 PCB because it will take more than that in effort for me to make one, even if the parts are cheaper. I generally think of the PCB as the most "value added" part of a kit since odds are I have most of the components I need, but the PCB represents a lot of work. So I think you should always consider selling just the PCB and the parts list if people ask for it.
In the end, you have to charge whatever it takes for you to not lose money and for it to be worth your time. If $85 is that price point, so be it.
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
Thanks for the thoughts. I have price-shopped a couple PCB places, and $8 was the cheapest I could find for the batch size I'm thinking is reasonable 25 or 50). As for the $14 of electronics, that's a rough number, and it might be a little high (I'll double check my jameco invoices tonight).
It sounds like people are generally in agreement with what I've seen elsewhere.. Price the kit with margins to make it worth your time. I imagine I'd rather not sell any than have it become popular at a price that's not worth my time.
It sounds like people are generally in agreement with what I've seen elsewhere.. Price the kit with margins to make it worth your time. I imagine I'd rather not sell any than have it become popular at a price that's not worth my time.
- sircastor
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:46 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
What are the dimensions of your PCB? Like it's been mentioned, $8 is a LOT for a wholesale cost PCB in quantity.
I'd say check current prices rather than old invoices, Mouser (for instance) provides price breaks at fairly low quantities (10 or 25) that could really affect your numbers. Be sure also to shop around for parts. I find frequently that something Mouser carries for an exorbitant amount, Digikey will be cheap on, and vice-versa.
I'd say check current prices rather than old invoices, Mouser (for instance) provides price breaks at fairly low quantities (10 or 25) that could really affect your numbers. Be sure also to shop around for parts. I find frequently that something Mouser carries for an exorbitant amount, Digikey will be cheap on, and vice-versa.
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
Interesting. My PCB is 6.8cm x 4cm. I got prices from Advanced Circuits and Avanti (Custom Circuit Boards), and the prices are assuming a batch of 25 or 50 PCBs. Am I missing something?sircastor wrote:What are the dimensions of your PCB? Like it's been mentioned, $8 is a LOT for a wholesale cost PCB in quantity.
I'd say check current prices rather than old invoices, Mouser (for instance) provides price breaks at fairly low quantities (10 or 25) that could really affect your numbers. Be sure also to shop around for parts. I find frequently that something Mouser carries for an exorbitant amount, Digikey will be cheap on, and vice-versa.
- george_graves
- Posts: 342
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:10 am
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
You could get 50 boards for about $55 shipped.
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion ... p-835.html
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion ... p-835.html
- 48x24x48x
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:50 am
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
You need to pay extra for electrical testing on all the boards. And don't forget, those are leaded boards.george graves wrote:You could get 50 boards for about $55 shipped.
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion ... p-835.html
And if you plan to reorder, go for those fab that will scrap the tooling cost for 2nd and subsequent orders. It saves you a lot of money.
- lyndon
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:28 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
I have a board that is almost exactly that size and it cost me less than $4 each @ qty 100 from pcbex.com. Turnaround was less than two weeks.
- sircastor
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:46 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
Domestically produced boards come out to be a lot more expensive than what you can get from overseas. There are some costs associated with that of course - No RoHS compliance, who knows if the factory treats their workers well, but the cost is significantly lower.rellik wrote: Interesting. My PCB is 6.8cm x 4cm. I got prices from Advanced Circuits and Avanti (Custom Circuit Boards), and the prices are assuming a batch of 25 or 50 PCBs. Am I missing something?
You might look at this page on ladyada.net, it's a bit dated but it provides some good information:
http://www.ladyada.net/library/pcb/manufacturers.html
also, a calculator:
http://www.ladyada.net/library/pcb/costcalc.html
Beyond that, Laen who runs the dorkbotpdx order has been experimenting with scaled runs for $1/sqin, with a minimum 100sqin. As it turns out, your board comes out to (I think) 3.9sqin, which at 100 sqin is 25 boards! Those boards are manufactured domestically (Amitron Corp.) and are very good quality. So you could do that for about $40. (check my math though). That comes down to less than $2 a board.
Looking at your video, you have a VERY cool product - see if you can't squeeze down that price a little. I don't think your LED strips will move much, but I'll be most of that can be reduced.
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
Thanks for the tips! I'm looking at pcbex and dorkbotpdx now. Both look like they will be much less than the $8 I was thinking before.sircastor wrote:Beyond that, Laen who runs the dorkbotpdx order has been experimenting with scaled runs for $1/sqin, with a minimum 100sqin. As it turns out, your board comes out to (I think) 3.9sqin, which at 100 sqin is 25 boards! Those boards are manufactured domestically (Amitron Corp.) and are very good quality. So you could do that for about $40. (check my math though). That comes down to less than $2 a board.
Thanks, I really appreciate thatsircastor wrote:Looking at your video, you have a VERY cool product - see if you can't squeeze down that price a little. I don't think your LED strips will move much, but I'll be most of that can be reduced.
The case is my big, flexible cost. Any ideas about a cheaper solution to this? Creating a mold sounds like a lot of up-front cost, and for the size of run I'm expecting on this (not much), I'm not sure this is the right project to try that on
EDIT: typo
- sircastor
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:46 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
What does your case look like? Is it something that needs to be cut by a laser? What's it made of? What are the dimensions? What is the shape? Could it be cut by hand? By a router? Can you simplify the design so that it can be manufactured a different way? Can you buy a case that's already manufactured in quantity, and make it work for your product?rellik wrote: Thanks, I really appreciate that
The case is my big, flexible cost. Any ideas about a cheaper solution to this? Creating a mold sounds like a lot of up-front cost, and for the size of run I'm expecting on this (not much), I'm not sure this is the right project to try that on
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm
Re: Unrealistically Expensive Kit
I think I can address the problem by just not providing a case. I set a grid up on my wall (with no case), and it looks pretty cool.sircastor wrote:What does your case look like? Is it something that needs to be cut by a laser? What's it made of? What are the dimensions? What is the shape? Could it be cut by hand? By a router? Can you simplify the design so that it can be manufactured a different way? Can you buy a case that's already manufactured in quantity, and make it work for your product?
This blog post has some close-ups: http://www.plainlystated.com/2011/10/snake-attack/
Here's a more contextual picture: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Kl15 ... G_7953.JPG
Without a case (and the cheaper PCB), that brings the costs (with suggested markups) to $150. I'll look for a little flexibility on the electronics, but hopefully that brings the kit to the "expensive" realm, instead of "unrealistic"
Forum rules
Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!
Get help, and assist others in with open source kits and running a business! Do not ask for legal advice or for consulting services in this forum, only general biz questions!