Mydata how-to and bit of hacking .... Moderators: adafruit_support_bill, adafruit

[alphatronique]

Hi

finish to replace all suspicious part and got it first test run whit really good result
for now i replace 1x motcard ,2x Head Z motor ,All Hi-flex flat cable(blue) ,Head electromagnet lock

that was 0603 and 0402 placed whit default mechanical centering (mydata default pakage)

really good for a 20 year old machine and a total expense of less that 10,000$ :wink:

foam dust issue was also fixed ,have cable that was misplaced and rub again sound isolation foam making it snow on the pcb ..

Alex: remenber it have 2 encoder for thetra one on motor and one on head shaft this one was big and sealed
i think one on motor was only for monitor motor belt broke and it use the bigger as master

also check vac rubber tune and force sensor wire and pcb since during init it turn head clock wise until silicone tube
hit the side of head , the do came conter clock wise the calculate encoder cont from that 2 position and divide by 2
for 0 deg find rotation , if you go in service menu you may see the encoder range for both end point

once it was init you may also go to unix promt and type burning and put all to off and keep only thetra on
and start test that will permit to find it issue was only during init or if happen during use
if pass burnin test it unlikely that was encoder or bad wire so check for init procedure
(silicon tube or something that make end point detection not repeatable like misplaced wire ,force during init
was fraction of what use during production and burning test)

Best regardc

[alphatronique]

Hi

got for fun some test on my new TP9-UPF whit 0201 part
even if machine was not specified for that on 506 part i report 20 misplaced/lost part
so it really good for a 20 year old machine and at that price range

please note that part was placed whit no centering at all , vision camera not have resolution for that
and part was to small for even try mechanical centering.
so for that test part was take from feeder and place on pcb Blind :mrgreen: and whit rate of ~800ms / part

have placed around 15,000 part mostly 0402 during last few day whit no yet missing part got ~10-15 part on it side or in double
so end result was clear that "UFP" was better that it litel brother 2U Machine ,even if UFP machine have got some abuse

also i find a funny thing , have replace Hard Drive on machine and start whit a clean install and restore parameter backup
but i got surprise that software hour meter was still set to it old default :?: ,i never see any eeprom on any pcb
so did it store it on PC cmos/bios ? ,or it very well hidden on parameter file but i found noting

Since my 2U was now a spare will resume my test/attemp to remplace PC and or enable USB

[alphatronique]

Hi
ok today how to emergency fix light curtain on a mydata ...

Disclaimer : never operate machine whit safety removed ,if work on light curtain card put emergency stop
and never put your finger ,or hand were it not suppose to be
remember X -wagon move a 160 inch/sec whit near 50 lbs so lot of energy here

this morning i boot machine and hear a relay make sound lime morse code on read boster :?:
so i not care and start to work since was but in rush ,try to setup feeder and machine hang whit error message :(

after some search i found that left light fence board on X-wagon was fail ,seem common issue i sold all my 4 spare board
umm ,so i no longer have spare , ok so put back spare machine in operation take 60-90 minute but it slower machine
if able to find a quick fix will better
by study schematic find that simply unplug cable and put jumper bypass the whole system :mrgreen:
personally i think it was much safer if mydata route Ir Detector pulse train into a mot card encoder input
instead it chose to put a logig level line low for "SAFE" and open for "UNSAFE" that not very failure proof
but that saved my production day :wink:

p.s. on all that connector for light fence it have only 3 pin used GND ,Supply , and output pin

and capcha on post was not dyslexia people proof ...

[alphatronique]

HI

so next logical step was fix the defective card

first bit of circuit fundamental ..

transmitter (fixed) send 40khz pulse train to each of the 10 IR led in sequence
Receiver (mobile) have IR Detector ,bandpass filter/AMP ,analog switch for scan each of channel
then go into detector (kind of ADC) and feed into 3 PAL that do logic work

so put scope on each of filter/Amp output (red circle on image) i notice that 2 Channel was in auto-oscillation @ ~60khz
since each filter /AMP have some gain i assume if have a fault it may enter into oscillator mode center on filter bandwidth

i have masked photo detector for make sure issue not come from transmitter side even masked it still oscillate

after notice some suspect solder on op-amp i take easy way to remake all solder into filer/amp section (yellow in picture)

that fix one of the 2 oscillated Channel :mrgreen:
and seem that even whit one still oscillated machine was back working ,will order a new amp chip for try to fix it later

i also notice that machine not start whit jumper it fail hardware init
seem that it put a safety for avoid operate machine on that unsafe way ,
i not notice it before since i put jumper after machine was init

[martinr112]

Hello,

I have Mydata TP-9 with CP/M operating system and software version 2.92.
What are options for control computer upgrades?
This CP/M system is working very well, only bad thing is you need to boot install disk to edit packages, that is very time consuming when introducing new packages.

Here is my setup with Fuji IP-3 feeders.


Regards,
Martin

[alphatronique]

Hi

ok first what a strange machine you have (Frankenstein)

1-) i not aware that mydata have used CP/M on any machine
normally it used Venix on first one then Move to linux

2-) since it blue color it was one of the very first machine probably < 1987
so not sure it may upgrade to > TPSYS 2.0 (Linux)
that need a pentium 120mhz as computer

3-) i notice you use one of your floppy emulator :mrgreen:
( i may interested to got the floppy image of the disk )

4-) Fuji IP3 feeder :shock: but that may also pose some issue with newer
software ,since it read feeder box serial Number/Type for preset ,tape pitch etc etc

so if you whish i have here one disk set for Venix 3.2.4 and TpSYS 1.4.7 that install on HD
have also a 486 computer ,the problem come that for enable software you need
then magick world that must match software version , and hardware (U200 on computer backplane)

and a last solution i have a complete TP9-2U running TpSYS 2.3 here :D

Best regard

[martinr112]

1-) i not aware that mydata have used CP/M on any machine
normally it used Venix on first one then Move to linux

Maybe they used CP/M only Europe models. This machine has well documented service manual. All schematic diagrams and parameter configuration guide. I have 2 of these machines, both good condition. I overhauled these for the last bearing and moving parts.

2-) since it blue color it was one of the very first machine probably < 1987
so not sure it may upgrade to > TPSYS 2.0 (Linux)
that need a pentium 120mhz as computer

It is year 1989 machine. Main computer is Z80.

3-) i notice you use one of your floppy emulator :mrgreen:
( i may interested to got the floppy image of the disk )

It is this emulator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFg7Fi1wFqE
I can give floppy image if interested.

4-) Fuji IP3 feeder :shock: but that may also pose some issue with newer
software ,since it read feeder box serial Number/Type for preset ,tape pitch etc etc

Current machine also reads feeder information. I made custom interface that reads solenoid impulses. Feeder cards are mounted below machine and drive motors with encoders also run. It was not worth to emulate these. This machine's pick position trim lets you choose positions in wide area, that made easy to use custom feeders.
The reason for upgrade was that I had old type TM feeders that were worn out. Mydata feeder prices are high. I got these Fuji feeders from closed production company with good price. These are for heavy production and very solid construction, practically no mispicks or feeding skips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsmAIzr3 ... e=youtu.be

so if you whish i have here one disk set for Venix 3.2.4 and TpSYS 1.4.7 that install on HD
have also a 486 computer ,the problem come that for enable software you need
then magick world that must match software version , and hardware (U200 on computer backplane)

I think I have old computer box and for upgrade I need complete electronics set.
I attach some pictures from motor cards etc.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing

[alphatronique]

Hi

that great hack for the feeder ;-)
think it change feeder controller later for bit more complex card ?

it really strange that it use CP/M ,that good i have learn something new today ;-)
probably it used CP/M until it die in 83 then move bit later to venix that also die in 95
funny my old zevatech run on Z80 whit CP/M ...
have disk image may good addition to my collection

as for computer for run linux TPSYS seem that it pentium have custom bios
i have lost lot of time trying to replace computer whit no success
have validated isa clock speed and drive current but not able to communicate with mot-1 card and vision card without original PC

i have here 2 of the older 486 computer whit cp4 vision card ,may let you one for a very low price price but that still not resolve issue of got the "magic word" for enable software
i have some of the U200 pal chip that it use for serial. i may try to find if i have a old disk that match one of that chip then just swap chip , but machine type will not fit so will need to set machine parameter right but it may doable

[heli_linus]

Hi

can I ask some very General MyData specific questions ... Thing is, I run as you can see in the Forum a M10V and this will not be my last PnP ... so starting to look around ;)

First but most important question to me is, there are very two different worlds, all other PnP and MyData. All other run the Head x-y-z, MyData has the y-table. When it now Comes to parts, placed on the Panel, i.e. heavy inductors, connectors and so on, wouldn't they just swash all over the place when the table starts moving aroung quickly?

Cheers
Linus

[alphatronique]

Hi

simple answer Y wagon simply not move fast so no issue :mrgreen:
that so gentle that begelboard was assembled on a old mydata whit the package on package

you may refer to this for see yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCah0CqcgEw

long answer: my data use verry nice part placement algo for minimise Y wagon movement
bit like a raster scanner ,combined with great control of acceleration force
so noting move ,and if it happen for some reason you may specify to mount that part last
so specify bit more force on head for make sure part was well set on the past

that desing have some advantage ,X motor was fix to the frame so it may big and fast and rigid
no need to make specific move for vision ,since part pass over camera anyway
need to trim on feeder only one axe , so if you place decoupling cap on feeder box close to the table placement rate was very good by minimise move a one head mydata place 3300 pat/h
that real number take from long term statistic if gt a machine with Hydra head it may place up to 21K part /h but price go up (30K $ and up)

but the major advantage was easy to program that wly most low volume shop use it

if you not see other machine on that design it simply because of patent (USD342748 whit many other)

Best regard

[heli_linus]

Hey,

many thanks, very informative though! I had a look at some other YT videos and there, I got the impression the movements are rather quick and could easily swush off all parts! Yours is looking allmost steady.

The 0201 sample you did does look quite nice, but I would say not enough reliable for series production, I would like to target a lower defect rate. How about BGA 0.3mm or fine Pitch 0.3/0.4mm? Any experience with those parts?

If I look at the new my100 maschines, they run on laser centering or bottom vision? And, what is the ballpark +- 10k US for a new one? Would you still recommend those "new" or is this all abut the best "used" beast out there?

Regarding the software I have a special question, I just did discuss with a DIMA technician today, the question would be, does it make sense or is it possible to
- read fiducial on every board of a panel before placement to compensate fo production tollerances within the panel?
- read local fiducials around fp bgas prior placement on every part where it is set up?

Using the M10V, I found this is a disadvanteage, it only reads and compensates for the general panel offsets, then badmarks, but no option to check local/board fiducials prior placement. Tollerances heavily depend o the panel design, sometimes clients requirements do not permit having a zero tollerance thing, flat-flex desings are worse, to my experience,though.

Cheers
Linus

[alphatronique]

Hi

not forgot that my 0201 test was made on a 20 year old machine that was born before 0201 exist ,so normally it not supposed to place that on any TP serie and that done whitout anny centering :mrgreen:

if you what to place 0201 and 0.3BGA you need a MY machine for sure or at least a DVC camera

mydata not use laser on any machine
1-) it use SVC and DVC (normal ccd camera)
2-) line scan (that linear CCD just like flat bed scanner so permit very high resolution)

personally my dream machine if i have money was a MY-9E or MY-12E
the E "Kind" was rare item and expensive it was a old MY but with linear motor
that just before it go to MY100 Serit ,so it old build like a tank but with MY100 performance
but prive was 30 to 60K $ (pese note that i have noting again MY100 it just find it look more plastic and it now use new control system on can-bus )

Machine read fiducial on all board that contain a panel and it easy to add or remove board from a panel ,just teach first fiducial and confirm the toer fiducial ..
actually you program a single PCB on machine then add copy of it and locate only it fiducial
and you may also copy past a panel just like a pcb so very flexible :mrgreen:

as for local fiducial (BGA / TQFP ) it part of footprint , so it set on footprint creation
personally i not use that ,and not have issue yet

p.s. yes on newer machine table travel fast but whit delicate acceleration
once moving G-force fall to 0

hope it help

[heli_linus]

It does help, a lot, thanks!

In General, are the Feeders compatible, from the TP to the new MY ? Are there special feeders required for 0201 or do half step 8mm just work fine on those? btw. the M10V does perform very well on 0201, you need to put it in slow mode, then you get perfect results, but slowish.

Regarding centring i.e. connectors, I got the following issue using my current Equipment, I can align parts based on two opposite Corners, i.e. lower right, upper left. But I can not align based on top left, top right, what I recently would like to get them perfectly aligned on the Pins, some connectors are fine, some are not. Some smd break away headers actually would be best aligned on middle left, middle right. For the local fiducials.

Do you supply everything in tape or do you have trays as well? I could not track down a YT with tray Feeders, those might be very expensive given the design?

Do they in General offer dispensing heads? I have many parts get secured with glue, large parts, connectors and so on.

I am actually very thankful that you take the time to answer here since I already spend a lot of time talking to sales reps which are not really giving answers to such details. I will go to productronica in Munich next month, hoping to get hands on one of those there, but want to be prepared to know what to look at in detail.

Cheers
Linus

[alphatronique]

Hi

it have 2 big family of MyData Feeder

a-) Black box (TMxx - xx = tape width) it come in 3 revision look for B or C one whit blue button on it , price was from 1500$ to 3000$ on used market ,a 8mm box hold 16 reel
for 4mm pitch (0201) need a TM8FC ,F = fine pitch it more expensive and rare

b-) White box (agilis) that newer model that use can-bus and innovative design that permit to load it very fast , but on used market it around 10K$ each :(

on newer machine MY and some rebuild TP both black and agilis work
whit older TP machine it handle only black one (lack of can bus board)


as for centering ,it center part on the nozzle , but you may on part definition specify a x or/and y offset , so that fix issue with odd form connector or part with unequal weight repartition

MyData is flexible for cut-tape ,1-) you may put a blank pcb on side on your and glue tape over it ... 2-) i CNC machine a rail system that fit on a IC tray for my cut tape contontool also have it (look similar to my desing that i post here ~3 year back..)
must agree that now i prefer to splice it and use normal feeder when possible ,since cut-tape was delicate to handle and not flip it over :cry:

i never see past dispenser head on a MyData , ok that may due to MyData try to sell it Jet past printer , kind if ink jet printer ... but that cost arm and leg ...

as for Glue it have what it call a GLUE station it work by drop transfert ,so bit dip on a constant lever pot then gently pressed it on pcb , i never personally use or see it in action

ok as for official sale rep like for all major company ,it focuses on sell new machine
and service price was hight ... so personally i fix it myself and it have ton of part available on the net (thank to have used same part for over 20 year)
and that explain why i do this seem to have lack of unofficial support , so i do it myself
trying to help user work on that great machine :mrgreen:

it sure that on trade show it have only MY100 and agilis feeder

p.s. never forget that all apply to newer TpSYS 2.4 , many old Tp machine run Venix whit TpSYS < 2.0 ,so many of feature on software was not present on that

[heli_linus]

Hi

on Google I found a thread on smtnet where some were discussing that there is a Problem (based from static discharge) that parts are jumping out from the tape, 0402 and 0201 mainly, using the TP Feeder boxes, have you ever had such Problems? Anyway, this was old so maybe Long time ago fixed in the design. http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm? ... d_ID=10468

Did I understand the machine design correctly, that I would actually not need a dedicated tray Feeder, just put the tray on the PCB cart, like you said for cut tape, I simply put it somewhere inside the PCB Cart? that's it?

Cheers
Linus