0

PNP line for small manufacutring.
Moderators: adafruit_support_bill, adafruit

Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.

PNP line for small manufacutring.

by mrpackethead on Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:52 pm

Hi,

I'm at a point where I want to install our own PNP line. Its not just driven by trying to save money, but its about being able to control our manufacturing process so i'm not at the mercy of contract manufacturers..

We typically do quite short runs, and i guess you would call us High Mix, low volume.

I'm lookign for somethign that can do 2500 - 5000 cp/h. has to be reliable, and accurate.

I hoping someone might be able to offer me a some advise.
mrpackethead
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by alphatronique on Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:35 pm

Hi

that have been covered many time here but think of 50 to 150K budget for have something
good ,pick & place was only small part of the game (stencil printer ,Reflow ,cleaning ,inspection ,pre and post water treatment ,rework equipment ,way to solder through hole etc etc )

Qoute " im not at the mercy of contract manufacturers.. "

maybe also you just not have the good assembler :mrgreen:
Best regard
Marc Lalonde CID.
IPC Certified PCB Designer.
Alphatroniqe inc.
www.alphatronique.com
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyData_Group

alphatronique
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 am

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by heli_linus on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:56 pm

Hi

first, there is a big difference between 2k and 5k parts per hour, also it highly depends on the parts, large parts usually take longer and so...

The higher the mix the more you want quick and easy changeover, which you do not get with entry level PNP.

There are pretty good and flexible manufacturing companies out there, maybe tricky to find ;) but they exist. So I would only recommend investing in production line if you want assembly becoming a major part of your companies income not just because you think you gain flexibility and so... those can be acomplished in good cooperation with your selected assebly house.

Do not forget as mentioned before inspection and rework, those things are essential and expensive! I would say, seriously 150k - 200k, for a good line, 50k for placing a few parts and solder them down, more educational and hobby than efficient manufacturing. Frankly, this is where I came from and started with but allways having in mind where I want to get.

Cheers
Linus
heli_linus
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by mrpackethead on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:15 pm

heli_linus wrote:Hi

first, there is a big difference between 2k and 5k parts per hour, also it highly depends on the parts, large parts usually take longer and so...

The higher the mix the more you want quick and easy changeover, which you do not get with entry level PNP.

There are pretty good and flexible manufacturing companies out there, maybe tricky to find ;) but they exist. So I would only recommend investing in production line if you want assembly becoming a major part of your companies income not just because you think you gain flexibility and so... those can be acomplished in good cooperation with your selected assebly house.

Do not forget as mentioned before inspection and rework, those things are essential and expensive! I would say, seriously 150k - 200k, for a good line, 50k for placing a few parts and solder them down, more educational and hobby than efficient manufacturing. Frankly, this is where I came from and started with but allways having in mind where I want to get.

Cheers
Linus


Maybe when you are located in a big city in the USA or Asia. I'm not. I'm in a non industrial city where my choice is very limited. But i like it here and dont' want to move!
mrpackethead
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by alphatronique on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:31 pm

Hi

i not see the need to only use a local shop

but best advice may ask you curent shop to break down it cost
or ask wly price look hight , by experience assembly shop profit margin was quite low
so if cost to much it may come from the design itself ,and simple change may drop cost by 50%

i see to many design company that start doing assembly to save cost and end into a money pit
since it not control design for assembly ,so have manufacturing cost explosion

but if you wish to start in assembly will happy to help you

Best regard
Best regard
Marc Lalonde CID.
IPC Certified PCB Designer.
Alphatroniqe inc.
www.alphatronique.com
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyData_Group

alphatronique
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 am

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by mrpackethead on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:06 pm

I dont' ahve issues with either the price or quality of my currnet manufacturers. They all do resonable jobs.
But I can't call them at 4pm and ask them to run 20 panels and have them ready for the morning when i have to get an ultra urgent order out the door.

This woudl'nt be a replacemnt for our main stream manfuacturing which will always been outsourced, mostly in Malaysia, where there are lines which will do Millions of parts per hour if you need it. This is about having a small inhouse capablity to bridge the gaps that contracted manfuacture can't do. I expect it to be cost negetive ( ie, it will cost me more ) to make them inhouse. but i'll have product in hand, days before i can get them from manfuacture.

I our game, we sometimes will go from "idea" to working product in just a few weeks.. Every day counts.

NB. We also make our own prototype and small run ( < 5 pannels ) pcbs and the speed factor.

So, while i appreciate your comments, really i'm interested in hearing the experiences of people who have got small lines.
mrpackethead
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by alphatronique on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:09 am

delete by me
Attachments
Shop_2103G.jpg
Shop_2103G.jpg (94.17 KiB) Viewed 1853 times
Last edited by alphatronique on Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best regard
Marc Lalonde CID.
IPC Certified PCB Designer.
Alphatroniqe inc.
www.alphatronique.com
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyData_Group

alphatronique
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 am

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by heli_linus on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:47 am

Hi

I agree for the flexibility, basically a few thoughts, is that boards you have in stock (with stencils?) or new designs, then you need turn time to get the panels and stencils to add.

Having the assembly shop not locally is not a problem, FedEx does a great job to cover for this. Most time assembly shops are giving you long lead times not because they can't just run a few boards "now" but rather considering the order and lead times getting the panels, parts and stencils produced. I have an agreement with a shop so I can deliver him a full package of things (knowing his preferred quick mount frame, panel size and so) and he just mounts the parts "overnight". Even though I have own pnp, my one is still too slow to run big jobs, so I use him to balance load.

Back to your project, one of the things I did underestimate was feeders (I did catch up on this) that is very important. I would today get a much faster machine, since as told before, big jobs can't run on my line, and look for the handling and changeover time (con on my line currently).

marc, I picked one interesting here, but happy to put in separate thread, AOI, never found anything in this price range, that would be great to get some products to look at, all I found was 20k+, even for used ones...

Cheers
Linus
heli_linus
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by alphatronique on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:02 am

delete by me
Last edited by alphatronique on Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best regard
Marc Lalonde CID.
IPC Certified PCB Designer.
Alphatroniqe inc.
www.alphatronique.com
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyData_Group

alphatronique
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 am

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by mrpackethead on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:02 pm

heli_linus wrote:Hi
I agree for the flexibility, basically a few thoughts, is that boards you have in stock (with stencils?) or new designs, then you need turn time to get the panels and stencils to add.
Having the assembly shop not locally is not a problem, FedEx does a great job to cover for this.


Fedex = 3 days. Not an option. in 3 days the product might need to be in the clients hands. Not everything needs to be this urgent but some things do.. Perhaps 10% or less of our manfuacturing.

Even though I have own pnp, my one is still too slow to run big jobs, so I use him to balance load.


this is exactly what i'm intending to do. "balancing and filling in the gaps"

Im looking at a couple of machines which seem quite resoanbly priced from MDC in Japan. They have a new machine the PP1, which is sub $10k.. And some NX machines ~20k..

Add a small batch oven.. ( already ahve a stencil printer that will do the job ) as we have a manual DIMA FP-600

I like that the machine can 'print' solder paste as well. that is a really nice feature for prototyping!
mrpackethead
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by heli_linus on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:18 am

Hi

When I started off, I think I got the same ideas as you have in mind. Today, I would do it very differently!

Can you say little bit more about those 10% urgent jobs, i.e. number of components to be placed, board size, single/double sided, component size (0201...0.3 pitch, bga?)

Solder paste dispensing is very limited and unreliable, I would not recommend for high quality production. It works down to 0603 quite reasonable, but very slow, smaller parts rather not.

Cheers
Linus
heli_linus
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by mrpackethead on Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm

Boards range in size of course

But. we've never used 0201 parts, 0402 is as small as we need to go, We don't currently use BGA's and if we did, we would get them done elsewhere. Boards are general doubled sided. Can have 30-40 different parts, and 100-300 parts per board.

One thing i know is that business needs evolve and change and if in the future we need to change things, and it makes sense we will. but i cna't 2nd guess that now. and i have a need today that a small line will fill
mrpackethead
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by heli_linus on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:43 pm

Hi

it really might sound arrogant but it is my very best try to give you propper advise.

Calculate it up by yourself, 35 part, each 5 minutes to prepare, 200 parts per board, 15 minutes soldering and printing / side ... 30 minutes for setting up printer, gives you 3.5 h preparation and running approx. 15 minutes in your (<10k) pnp, so 30-45m/board scales with panelisation, but 10 boards/panels is you max output/day. Dispensing (manually) would make it worse dramatically!

As of my first post. If you want educational, hobby, because you love it, pnp, any price, just get it, it's great fun!

If you want to make money with it, invest 100k+ in a very good, scaleable machine, even more fun, gives you reasonable return. Commercially, you can not operate the kind of machine you are curretnly looking at because it is simply way to slow. My small machine is now running in two shifts (I must have a genetic defect and need no sleep ;) ) and I will upgrade it asap. In fact, I loose money compared to outsourcing.

Intelligent planning is the key to successfull supply small quantities very quickly. Operating your own production line simply is to my experience a very good idea, but requires a much higher investment. That is why I e.g. look at fast and modern used Mydata, now, after only 1 year ;) the newer, the better.

Double sided soldering requires glue dispensing my M10V has a dispensing head, w/o I could not operate, (requires again some time!) and a full convection reflow (I tried everything else, no reliable results).

Cheers
Linus
heli_linus
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by alphatronique on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:52 pm

delete by me
Last edited by alphatronique on Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best regard
Marc Lalonde CID.
IPC Certified PCB Designer.
Alphatroniqe inc.
www.alphatronique.com
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyData_Group

alphatronique
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 am

Re: PNP line for small manufacutring.

by heli_linus on Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:12 am

Hi

just returned from Munich trade show. Was a very interesting day, though. The pnp manufactures (or resellers) divide into two big clusters (to me) 1) who are interested in selling on solutions, they let you play with the machines, invite you for a demo to bring your own board and stencils and parts, which is about a day of work for them, and answer patiently every single question you can think off .. 2) they sell on brand name, buy it or leave it, it is great and if you don't know it its your fault.

Anyway, I did take only very little time looking at the very simple solutions and seriously can not recommend those. Problem is changeover, scalability and too complicated software. It is a hacker solution but nothing you can really make business of.

I focussed looking at Mechatronika, esemtec, i-pulse and mydata. Juki could be interesting, but I had no time left to go there. Mechatronika is showing some very interesting new solutions mid next year, especially for the manufacturing requirements as discussed here, mydata is cluster 2) somehow, they did not even speak to me since I did not make an apointment prior going to their booth! That was very frustrating!

Linus
heli_linus
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.


cron