0

does x0x need to warm up?
Moderators: altitude, adafruit_support_bill, adafruit, phono, hamburgers

Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:43 pm

yes, i heard something and i'm almost certain it's the thing you call "gritty"
the 50Hz hum is "interacting" with the x0x at certain frequencies

this "interaction" is too audible, it's not normal
you should figure out where it comes from and get rid of it (unless you like it)

i have the ba662clown in one of my x0xb0xes.. there's nothing special about it as far as i'm concerned
if you're going to go for it, then you should know a few important things:
1) don't put the BA6110 and BA662 both at the same time
2) if you'll put the BA662 - you gotta remove the four transistors Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4
3) even after all that effort, nothing magical's gonna happen

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:57 pm

ok, thanks for info about the ba662. -clown, lol.
i'll just move the x0x;.. it's a right bodge at the moment,
and my amp is a battered old 2+sub pc thing, that i've
probably vibrated to bits by now. has served well, for
temporary locations over time, non-critical auditioning...
i made a pile of plugins with it, and it was useful when
i lived in the mobile home, to just have the sub a few feet
away, and the two little monitors for mid/top, just to give
me a certain idea of the 'body' of the sound. but i've cranked
it up for a walk outside too often, i reckon. and i ought to have
some better speakers again. everything has had to be temporary
for some time.(a little insight haha) - ok, so i'll try that, Doctor.
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:06 am

how weird... i can't find that 'grit' now in the audio file :-) ??
maybe you are right, a 'sympathetic resonance' from the sub cabinet,
or something in that audio line...

but i have figured out which bit was the 'long' step entry decay, it is this
one, short file:

https://app.box.com/s/tivtlv608uv4yowhwqbhpphv9iu7524h

is that too long? or normal?

and here are some examples of sounds i haven't yet got to with the TT:
accent rest ghost note: (on x0xb0x)
https://app.box.com/s/k7qsox9fynvf5q4lr7b32qpx04sujlg0
'singing twang' (haha i know you love these terms)
https://app.box.com/s/u0630bfgco40ypvoqrmjy9bhcpecuwky

https://app.box.com/s/pf6tan7bj3u7e27j33wvxhrxc00l3oal


and hey... have a look at this...acrylic cases for RE-303, and the drawing for it...
if these could be made into a hybrid with thhe pactec pt10 drawing.... 8-)))

http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb447909/dinsy ... vA.dxf.zip
http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb447909/dinsy ... vA.dxf.zip

hope these links work:

Image: http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/2e730a-1487288341.jpg (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?fi ... 288341.jpg)

Image: http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/76f267-1487288370.jpg (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?fi ... 288370.jpg)
-----------
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:13 am

the ghost-accent (accent on a rest) is not possible on the 303 sequencer
nor is the ghost-slide (slide from a rest)
nor the double-up octave in the pattern

it might sound weird but these things make patterns sound less authentic
some people (familiar with the 303 sound) will notice "something weird about the sound" but probably won't be able to pin-point exactly what it is, but they will ask "which clone is that? x0xb0x? well it doesn't nail the 303 sound"

the bassbot is also guilty, it lets you make ghost slides (pitch/time mode fail)

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:00 pm

the sequencer is really good though. it has a certain energy. what do you
mean about 'tap' not being properly implemented? or was it pitch/time?
i'm only just finding out about tied note...i'm not really sure what i'm
doing with that yet. or if i like tied vs slide etc.
arpeggiator mode is good. if you're sending midi out like that, to a sequencer
recording the midi, it's perfect for creating arpeggios, anything.
not tried autogenerating banks of patterns yet, sussed out how to copy and
paste, it doesn't need to stop switching from play/write, in either direction
- although you do stop to stepwrite. i really *love* it lol
unfortunately the headphone amp, or something, has a problem with this one.
there a hum on the audio, it pops with a squeek as it comes on. i think it gets
lost as the volume is turned up, but still not happy with that, so i'll have to figure
that one out.
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:08 pm

human fly wrote:what do you mean about 'tap' not being properly implemented? or was it pitch/time?

none of those modes are really accurately implemented on the bassbot
try to chain 4 patterns together and edit them as one
here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhLXsFvXPbo
a silly melody, very familiar, and very simple, it really shows how the 303 sequencer can be really fast (i'm doing things slow in that video on purpose)
just try to program that in the stock x0xb0x sequencer, or in the bassbot

sure it's all software and it could be "fixed" later, i doubt tho

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:50 am

well i don't know yet about 4 patterns - although it's supposed to be
able to do 64 steps per pattern - but you can do pitch just like that,
and i have found the Tap metronome, so i assume it will be similar;
i've been step-inputting Time as well, where it has an extra note/gate
type: 'Tie', which i guess is the same as 'legato', and extends the
first note across the next note-step. still don't have much experience
with that but i'm getting some nice chaotic programming results
-'happy accidents'- ...which i like: i'm very happy for it to suggest
things when i screw up. the x0x is much more predictable, and hence
reliant on my dubious musicality. i have to work hard to find the same
kind of things produced by the bassbot. and still no 'Tie' on Nonx0x!
how can you live with that? haha - maybe you could add another
physical button for a future implementation..to be fair i'm not sure how
useful legato/tie is, although i tend to go for fewer slides. the bassbot
seems to generate more usable sequences with my mistakes. one crit'
is that i haven't found a way to shorten a sequence once it's inputted.

i think the bassbot does stuff the original couldn't: like midi out, and
the arpeggiator mode, which is great for redoing the pitches on the
fly; for a TB obsessive, you really should take a look at it. you've nailed
pitch and time and tap, but how do you do a longer gate time?
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:27 pm

human fly wrote:well i don't know yet about 4 patterns - although it's supposed to be
able to do 64 steps per pattern - but you can do pitch just like that,
and i have found the Tap metronome, so i assume it will be similar;

a 64-step pattern is not the same as 4 chained patterns (which can be unchained)
also, a chain of 4 patterns could consist of patterns with mixed step mode (triplets and 4/4)
the "tap-write mode" on the bassbot doesn't work on chains of patterns, in fact, i think neither does pitch and time mode

and still no 'Tie' on Nonx0x!
how can you live with that? haha - maybe you could add another
physical button for a future implementation..

hm? the 303 has ties and therefore n0nx0x2 has ties too
to be fair i'm not sure how
useful legato/tie is, although i tend to go for fewer slides.

tie is a way to sustain a note for a longer time
say you want to program a 16-step pattern with just two long notes d#(U) and f#(D), 8-steps each
on the 303 sequencer, you'd go to pitch mode:
press up+d#, then down+f#, exit
then go to time mode (G=gate, O=tie):
press: GOOO OOOO GOOO OOOO

now what if you had to program this into something that didn't have ties? like the x0xb0x stock firmware?
press:
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,slide,next
d#,up,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,slide,next
f#,down,next
done

now, how many buttons had to be pressed?
TB-303: 22 buttons
x0x: 62 buttons
quite a difference
how about if you happen to want to change those two notes to a different pitch? on the 303 you'd just go to pitch mode, and change 2 notes.. on the x0x you'd have to change all 16 notes

to sum it up, the 303 sequencer is very good at manipulating long patterns with few notes

i think the bassbot does stuff the original couldn't: like midi out, and
the arpeggiator mode, which is great for redoing the pitches on the
fly; for a TB obsessive, you really should take a look at it.

the bassbot certainly does many things which the 303 doesn't do, it breaks a bunch of "rules"
there's nothing in the bassbot which i would want, really
you've nailed
pitch and time and tap, but how do you do a longer gate time?

the 303 doesn't do that
i've done variable gate length per step in my first 303 approximation synth, and it's pretty much boring
i have variable gate length per pattern in the final version, i don't actually use it (and i kinda hate it now)
i can also sequence the thing via MIDI notes, where i could have any twisted gate length and timing i would want, but i don't

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:48 pm

to say it another way
i'm fortunate to have a software 303 approximation synth
actually two different ones - one with the sequencer, and another one which doesn't have a sequencer but features a ton of extra synthesis mods (think of devilfish/avalon)
i've spent a long time trying to understand the 303, to synthesize it, etc.. i've had the oportunity to change anything about it (because it's easy when it's just software), i've tried different oscillators, different filters, different envelopes, different modulations...
i've also went thru many changes in the sequencer too

so, let me tell you what i learnt
the 303 is all about the combination of those few things it has, it's very limited but in a very clever way
specifically the tone controls - no matter how you tweak them - it never sounds bad <- this is very hard to achieve
just think of a more complex synth for a moment (even a modular) and suppose you can randomize all parameters - the chances that it will sound bad/weird are very very high

but the 303 sound is very fragile, change stuff (modify it) and you start breaking the rules.. then you begin to lose this special property
if i have to make a 303-like synth again, with what i know now - i would stick with the original features/structure, that's the hard thing.. i wouldn't bother going into the devilfish teritory, nor any other kinds of mods, extensions, whatever..

adding features on top of the 303 is hard
n0nx0x2's main purpose is to bring the 303 sequencer to the x0xb0x
but of course, we wanted to also add features on top of that.. so we've went thru a lot of head-banging to figure out how to add something on top without breaking the original 303 sequencer functionality, and without the new features looking like aliens in the interface

there are a few "extensions" i have in the sequencer of the soft-synth
like "double-up" in the pattern, and per-pattern gate length
lemme tell you: i hate them

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:54 pm

ah ok, i didn't realise n0nx0x has Tie too.
so that must be the slide button in Time Mode?
where is Tap? same button but depends on the mode?
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:10 pm

i guess you don't realise that n0nx0x2 requires a different front panel
the layout is almost the same as the 303, only the BACK button and TIME MODE are merged into one button, the rest is all there
Image
the tie button is on the "up" button, just like on the 303

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:38 pm

yes yes i knew,
just couldn't visualise the configuration from memory.
and accent becomes rest.
panel looks nice. if only the pt10 could be swapped out !
did you see those re303 acrylic case? merge that drawing
with the PT10 dimensions...print case :-)
(i've been trying to think of a way of lowering its height
with a new enclosure)
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:54 pm

i'm okay with the pactec case, it looks good next to the yocto

Image

i'm not following the re303, and not interested in bassbots/avalon, i have a bunch of "303" options already

antto
 
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:30 pm

yeah that looks nice. how are you finding the Yocto? how was it to build?

the re303 is '1.1', right? so it has no MIDI, nothing the original doesn't?
except it appears to have Elektron buttons...

the reason i don't like the pactec pt10 is that it's a/big and b/ i'd like to be
able to put it in an empty 2U rack space - so that probably seems like a lot
of hassle for that. i know why they chose it: it's the cheapest case on the
market, it's solid and ideal for the job/project. (it even has a '303' dimension
in the drawing..)

dunno: i don't really have a budget for a new panel or the 'Large' right now,
and wasn' thinking of spending more money down that road - but i've kinda
gone off the 'tb-x0x' panel anyway, it seemed like a good idea at the time,
but now i look at the stock original panel and it seems more 'authentic' LOL

i'm not unhappy with the x0x: i can program it really quickly and accurately
using sokkOS2 now, much better than the original OS. have not tried MarOS.

at the moment, i'm impressed by the Bassbot sequencer, it seems really good,
and that's one thing it has over the re303. not interested in that, or avalon
either. and i like that it runs on batteries .. it's great to just plug in in some
headphones and bash in a few more patterns. it has that 80s early-digital-gadget
appeal that that roland series have.

i will have to do my own side-by-side test. there's a definite sound range where
they converge. i'm questioning the oscillator sound on my x0x a bit, the filter
is pretty much the same. i hear people say all x0x's sound different - and agree
that there isn't much point in adding mods to it. i'm not after distorted turbo
sound, just an authentic squelch and groove; i'm not even into shuffle really.
-and also a test with Bassbot driving the x0x, to see how that comes out.
it will probably justify your OS.

the current sequencer is good as well. shame that sokkOS2 doesn't keep running
when you go back to Play after editing a sequence. it will continue if you don't
edit anything, so why not after an edit? that's quite important in the context of
a 'more convenient' sequencer. i end up chucking in rests and octave jumps at
random while its running, to see what happens, and changes undo if you don't
save, so that works quite well; i think dinsync should run all the time, seem to
remember there's an issue switching back and forth. the bassbot could really
do with dinsync but 'kids' aren't going to worry about that anymore.
human fly
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:21 am

Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by rv0 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:32 am

acrylic cases suck, they break in many pieces upon impact.

i like the pactec case, but it's easy to build another case in wood or something. just don't use acrylics :)
there will be a cheaper alternative for the n0nx0x panels available soon, polycarbonate overlays, here's a prototype:
Image

rv0
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:50 pm

Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.