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does x0x need to warm up?
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does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:16 am

does the x0xbx0x need to warm up? i'm noticing a grittier
waveform, and even a pitch fluctuation? i'm a bit worried,
i left it on for quite a while the other day, and hadn't noticed
this before. this property isn't grounded properly and the
lightswitch circuit can make pops on amplifier.

i'll have to record some audio.

the other thing i noticed is that the envelope seems really long
when i'm stepping through in write mode. really long decay.
doesn't do it in keyboard play mode, plays regularly;
if i hold rest in kb play it plays long again, same with slide, and
pressing accent give an expected accented note.
pattern play seems normal.

is this normal?i hadn't noticed this before.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by rv0 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:51 am

all analogue electronics are influenced by thermal conditions.
in general a 303 will sound better after "warming up", but that's just.. a feeling.

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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:24 am

hi rv0,
will have to do a test and record it.
what about the length of the note in step entry ? -sokkos2-
i don't remember the decay being that long. that's a loooong decay..

it's ok in pattern play..

ive got a Rogue that needs a warm-up, for tuning (years ago, i forgot
that, and recalibrated it...then had to do it again..) but this doesn't
seem like pitch - theres some real 'grit' going on, and i haven't noticed
it before. maybe it goes away when warmed up, i'll try that.

i decided to leave it on for a few hours the other day, as i hadn't really
run it for long periods. seemed like a reasonable thing to do, and
possibly beneficial - you know, 'burn it in', kinda thing. it isn't sounding
'bad' or anything - lol it just fudged the 'is it accurate' question even
more. it's sounding pretty good actually.

found that nice trick with accent on a rest, where you pop out a
'ghost note' turning up the accent.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:16 pm

my x0xb0xes are mostly powered on 24/7, all the time
the older one is from.. 2010 or so.. so for those ~7 years it's been "on" for a good 90% of the time

if something changes drastically after power-on - then it's probably broken

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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:36 pm

what would be 'broken' if the decay time is too long going through
in step mode? or if the osc has fluctuations and seems grainier?

i haven't done anything to it, it has been well looked after, not knocked
around. it sounds ok running. all that's happened in the past few days
is that one time i left it one for about 4 hours. if that's enough to 'break'
it, i don't rate it very highly. i don't think it is 'broken'. hey if that's it,
no wonder roland don't produce analog any more.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:01 pm

the sequencer doesn't have the ability to control the vca envelope
either a note is held on (which causes the vca decay to run at its relatively slow speed) or goes off (then the vca envelope is quickly muted with what you could call a "release" segment, sort of)

by your description it sounds like the sequencer is simply holding the notes down - you can check that by measuring the gate-out signal

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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:31 am

i'll have to do an audio demo.
i don't have anything to measure a gate out signal.
maybe it's ok, i just don't remember that step entry
mode having such a long decay - i can twiddle a knob
while it decays.

i opened it up once to have a look and take photos inside,
that's all, didn't even touch anything, and i'm not a klutz.
i'm hoping it's ok; just checking with other users/owners
whether the circuit has that need to warm up a bit like
some old gear i've had. a friend of mine used to be a keyboard
tech and tour manager in the 80s for lots of big name artists,
said analog was a pain and always needed fixing and maintenance.

i'm aware that it's best to just keep stuff on if you can, but
303s and stuff like that don't enter into that category - the
batteries would run down, eh :-) - and it isn't practical for
me, and i can't trust people not to walk in and screw things
up or just walk off with them.

i didn't build it, and i wouldn't expect it to break down for
no reason - those old rolands, you could take them out, gig
them in venues and they'd fill up with condensation inside,
that's why you sometimes find rust on the circuitboards,
they were designed to be gigged and be durable; i'd expect
this to be the same. i would be pretty disappointed if it
started going wrong after a few hours actual running time.
don't get to spend as much time as i'd like on it these days;
have to find a minute to do that recording, i'll re-post.

i might just be freaking out for nothing ... ;-)
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:45 am

ok i did that recording this morning..ah, but i also took
delivery of a 2nd hand TT-303 :-) i've been waiting for it
for ages, and didn't want to jinx it by mentioning it. it is
great..very slightly finer tone, although it could maybe do
with a tweak of that tm3, as there's one tone it doesn't
quite hit - viz >> nice demo of TB vs TT with the sequentix
sequencer an all that vintage gear. but it's nice to have
pitch and time modes, and go back+forth between write
and play. i think antto should get one :-)
the x0x deffo has a bit of 'grit', but it's sounding good too.
it really takes a bit of learning how to program decent lines
into it. i was nowhere with the original OS, and sokkos2 does
improve it massively. have to xfer the file to mp3 for upload,
later.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:13 pm

i think i've found a difference: accents on rests.
i have not yet been able to reproduce the 'ghost notes'
that appear with accent, when you put an accent on a
rest; it is what also gets the x0x to 'squeal' when
you turn up the accent. not getting that.

it could be down to unfamilarity with the sequencer
functions, i really need to rtfm, because there's some
weird led action, and stuff i haven't understood yet.
hey but it IS good. and the pitch+time mode sequencer,
that is where the magic is in coming up with good patterns.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:08 pm

the bassbot's sequencer is not very accurate, don't be fooled by the labels on the front panel being the same as the original
it didn't even had tap-write mode till a pile of users asked for it, and it's still not proper

IMO the x0xb0x should be tougher than the 303
the PCB (and in general, today's PCBs) is certainly tougher, the pactec case is not 30 years old
so what's left is the components.. expect the mechanical components to go bad first.. that's potentiometers and buttons, nothing unusual
if you open it often (like me) there's a big chance to get the flat cables torn (so i've replaced them with molex (disconnectable) which fixes that)
and the fact that the PCB is bigger than the original should make repairing slightly easier
as i said, i keep both mine powered on all the time, the x0x shouldn't need to "warm up" and shouldn't change its sound drastically
of course there are sections of the circuit which are significantly affected by temperature, but those sections have (or should) been taken care of as part of the circuit design
specifically the vco pitch, which includes thermistors
so if your vco pitch tuning changes significantly with temperature - maybe the thermistors should be inspected
in any case, if you will be re-tuning the vco - do it when the x0xb0x has "warmed up" in the typical room temperature for your place (your room/studio/etc) this will ensure that the tuning reaches the calibrated setting when the x0x is running for a long time (which is normal)

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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:17 pm

here's a photo of the inside of my b0x. it seems really well made.
Attachments
DSC00381 33pcnt.jpg
DSC00381 33pcnt.jpg (417.51 KiB) Viewed 168 times
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:45 pm

here's some mp3s (192kps)
i didn't edit them down; the first one should have the step entry decay
example - just realised i didn't flatten the envelope as i should have but
it might be ok - and i should've edited them down a bit but i'm feeling
lazy :-)
(hey i was just kidding about analog - i got rid of my VA synth.
wouldn't be without analog )
ok, so this is listening out for a kind of grittiness on the oscillator. i don't
mind it too much, but i don't think i noticed it before - ? -
and there should be an example of the long decay on step entry.

https://app.box.com/s/e1u57f3d61ktwu1qjw3s2b2vk8bap7rq

https://app.box.com/s/kbmpdwdy8mzqcj1311b1162iv1npvpxd

https://app.box.com/s/olnu0h7ds7x3ed49j1vgpdjendevvfv4
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:54 pm

i haven't figured out Tap mode anyway yet. just did pitch and time mode
so far. seems pretty cool. haven't fully figured out how to set pattern
length once set, - i don't think you can shorten it, like with sokkos2, after
setting a first length. but there's lots of weird things i need to learn about.
this would appear to be a later issue with insta DJ2, still under warranty
so quite recent.

i'll upload a demo of that too, here, when i've done one.
i'm pretty pleased with it so far. haha and yeah maybe part of it is the
way it looks, as you said, but who cares? i'm not *that* purist about it,
i just did struggle with the x0x, and believing in it, when it had the 1.9
OS on it(or whatever that number was). here, it's immediately in the
right ballpark. even just switching it on, the first sounds, and i thought,
yeah. didn't feel that about x0xbox.
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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by antto on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:17 pm

you have a few weird things going on in the recordings
there's 50Hz hum in the right channel, and also in the left channel (not as strong)
the x0xb0x audio is bleeding into the right channel (mostly the higher frequencies)
i think the two audio channels are bleeding into each other
have you plugged a stereo 6.35mm jack into the x0x output?

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Re: does x0x need to warm up?

by human fly on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:30 pm

oh yeah i know about the hum and the mono-stereo thing, sorry
forgot you might look at it. it's crossed wires, audio +psu, something
like that, and my mono to stereo jack doesn't work, i know about that :-)

but just listening, can you hear it? (gritty coming in and out)

hey, i was looking at the RE303 site out of curiosity, and i don't know
what he put in my machine i haven't looked closely, but they do a
ba662 clone (out of stock atm) for only 100kr, currently 10.58eu...
now i read that if the substitute is in there, what is it ba something,
there's an extra space for a ba662...do you know anything about this?
i've got a close up of that section, think it's the right size to upload;.
i really need to look at it. (i think it's the right spot)

anyway, did you recognise a bit where i'm stepping through in step
mode? i really should've stopped and done one file just of that.

and you can hear parts where the osc is 'gritty' one moment, then
straightens out, and the grit comes back, it's a kind of slow oscillation.
the TT sounds even by comparison, if that counts.
Attachments
ba662 detail.png
ba662 detail.png (603.25 KiB) Viewed 130 times
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Please be positive and constructive with your questions and comments.